Welcome And Why Roger’s Here

SPEAKER_09 0:00

Yay, he's here. Roger Sutherland, a Healthy Shift challenges to being a partner to a shift work. Uh joining Roger, founder of a Healthy Shift, creator of uh Shift Work Champions. Rog is a shift work performance and fatigue specialist. We should come over to this side of the desk. Uh with 40 years frontline, 40 years frontline shift work experience with Vic Pol, Victoria Police. Uh, does some incredible uh work. Uh it's a big welcome. Uh Roger Sutherland. Good morning.

SPEAKER_08 0:30

Good morning, Tony, and also good morning to Australia.

SPEAKER_09 0:33

Good morning, uh, Australia. Right across this great nation. So uh people are listening in Sydney, they're in Brisbane, they're in Perth, Adelaide, and uh, of course, here 3AW in Melbourne.

A Partner’s Letter And The Fear

SPEAKER_09 0:42

Uh I sent you a note yesterday, which is well and truly worthwhile uh talking about. It's a lovely email that came in uh to me, but I forwarded it to you because it really goes to what you're about. It says, uh Dear Mr. Sutherland, that's you. It isn't do. Uh firstly, thank you for your service as a police officer. I appreciate that you tried to make changes to show first responders how they manage their health, sleep, and their day. This is where it gets really interesting. Yes. Uh I am the wife of a retired South Australian police police officer, forty-two point five years. Well, that's a lot. I'm also the mother of a single adult child who grew up managing her father's shifts, absences, and whatever the job threw at her in her young life. Very important point that. I'm still managing sleep deficiencies created by a husband working shift work for such a long time. Feel that the management and effects of shift work not only felt by the worker themselves, but also the workers' family. I've seen other police officers' wives experience suicide, alcoholism, breakdown of relationships. I experienced long-term health issues, sleep deprivation, considerable stress, the inability to sleep until I heard my husband pull into our driveway, no matter what time his shift ended, is still a factor, even though he was no longer working. Wow. Yes. How powerful is that. Yep. My point is partners and children are there supporting their family member, but who is there to support them?

SPEAKER_08 2:14

It's a great point. And and I this is something that I and I know um Australia won't actually believe me on this, but I I write a sheet and I send it in to Jay and yourself before I come in, just as some talking points. And my topic number one is today was literally the challenges of being a partner to a shift worker and what that is like. Because we underestimate it. Now, if I can today, um, this writer has actually written about waiting for the husband to come home or waiting for their partner to come home. And do you know my mum went through that, and my wife went through that, and my partner went through that, and we've been through that. We underestimate that as shift workers, what that's actually like for our partners at home. And I'll take you to that dreadful incident on the weekend in New South Wales where the young policewoman was killed in the police car. Unimaginable. Now there's a father, Chen. I don't know whether you saw him interviewed on the on the TV yesterday. Absolutely dreadful. But what um there's a person that actually got the knock on the door that that our writer is actually talking about lying there, worrying and wondering Will they come home safely? Are they going to come home safely? Or is that knock on the door going to be the one that I've dreaded since the day you started? Now, remember this too. It's not only police and awful things that can happen to police. Let's look at people working overnight that are working in the industrial sector that could be they could have an accident at work because fatigue-related accidents are horrendous, right? And happen a lot overnight. And then we've got people who are paramedics that you know you can fall asleep. The most dangerous part of a night shift is the drive home, without any doubt whatsoever. It's not so much the shift, it's the drive home. Okay, I've done the shift, I feel good now, I'm I'm I can make it and drive home. And you become complacent, and this is where we have some severe accidents. And it isn't until that car pulls in the driveway that you realise, oh, I can relax. And you've seen that this rider has talked about the impacts that that's had with insomnia for her, and also the impacts that it's had with her daughter. So, what I want to hear from is I'd love to hear from people who are the partners of shift workers. And can you call us on 133693 and just talk us through what is it like as the partner being at home? What is it like as the daughter? See, I've got a daughter that's in the police, I've got a son-in-law that's in the police, and I've got a son who's um in emergency services, as well as my partner. Are you acutely aware? I'm very acutely aware of what it's like when you're when your children are working night shift. And uh I've had the the knock on the door, but not in that way. But I had a knock on the door from uniform and also worried, and the first place that my mind went was Oh my god, he's the worst. The worst.

SPEAKER_09 5:22

This letter goes on. Um, my husband has left the police, of course. Profound deafness caused by sirens of a police car.

SPEAKER_08 5:29

Underestimated?

SPEAKER_09 5:30

True. Yes, true story.

SPEAKER_08 5:32

Does that ever get uh um what's the word addressed? Well uh does it yeah, but it's a work cover thing. So what happens is that that is an issue that as you're driving along, you don't realise that this exposure over time. There's a lot of police members as well that work on firearm ranges as well, gun ranges. Even though you're wearing ear protection and things like that, that continual exposure to those uh firearms going off. Um and you've got to remember going back, you know, we're much better now than we were many, many years ago with how we actually protect ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_09 6:07

A good person uh who just says uh Kel Richards, odds words to J be on a Thursday night with John Stanley. Yeah, he's wonderful, Kel. We're trying to get him on this program uh from time to time. Uh for saying daylight saving as opposed to daylight savings. Daylight saving. Daylight saving, which is great.

Calling Partners And Families To Speak

SPEAKER_09 6:25

Well done to you. Sue Sunbury,

Nursing Nights And Family Disconnection

SPEAKER_09 6:27

morning. Oh, good morning, Joni. How are you? Oh, I'm well, say hello to Roger.

SPEAKER_08 6:31

Morning, Sue. Hello, hello, Roger. How are you going? I'm very, very well, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_07 6:38

Yes, you're a shift worker too.

SPEAKER_08 6:40

I did 40 years of shift work. Lucky for me, I stopped about two two and a half years ago now.

SPEAKER_07 6:48

Wow, that's a long time, a long time ship work. It was I don't know how you did it, but people do it because it's what you do, it's hard that you get so used to it. You're right about a lot of things. I did um shipwork nursing. So I used to do a lot of we used to call it the graveyard shift. Absolutely, and it is and how long did you do that for, Sue?

SPEAKER_08 7:15

How long did you do your your shift work for?

SPEAKER_07 7:18

Nothing. I did it for nearly twenty years. Amazing.

SPEAKER_08 7:22

Well done. Sacrificing your own health for the health of others is is the most selfless thing that I think people can do, Sue.

SPEAKER_07 7:29

I know, it's um it's a strange shift because when you go to work at at night, well we used to start at ten at night and at seven in the morning. Yep. So you sort of um you get you do get used to it, but when you do go to work, everyone's either sleepy in the morning when they're at work. But there's a lot that are awake. But it's a strange feeling when you go because you don't have the same feeling as you when you work in the day. Because it's busy in the daytime.

SPEAKER_08 8:06

Yeah, it's very different, isn't it?

SPEAKER_07 8:09

It's very unusual.

SPEAKER_08 8:11

And and and also Sue, as a female too, did you find it quite difficult as well? Like it I I know I've coached a lot of nurses one-to-one and they really struggle with the night shift as a female as well, in particular. Did you find that yourself?

SPEAKER_07 8:27

In so many ways, yes, I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:30

It was you sort of knew that your family were home sleeping. Yes. Um, and you were sort of uh wide awake.

SPEAKER_10 8:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 8:40

You'd go hunt in the morning and they'd be getting ready, ready to go off to school or then off to work or whatever they were doing. It was like, hi, goodbye. You know, it was like you had that sort of strange feeling between yourself and your family. Well done, Sue. Thank you so much for what you've done.

Why Workplaces Ignore Family Impact

SPEAKER_09 9:02

Great cool. Uh so uh again going back to you, Roger, if I may, a lot of these issues like this, the pressure that it puts on family for a range of reasons as addressed, for the most part is unaddressed by those that run these great operations. No, that's 100% right. Never gets discussed.

SPEAKER_08 9:21

No, it doesn't, it it doesn't get oh, they would stand at the lectern and they will say, Oh, we have the welfare of our members and we have the welfare of our officers. So it's tokenistic. But the the thing is they don't. There's not enough that's done to educate the actual shift worker on how to optimise their life around it to make it a lot easier for their families. And shift workers today are literally bumbling their way through it, learning from other people, which is why I'm doing what I do today. And the reason why I do what I do today, and I'm developed a new framework, an entirely new framework. And I want to be honest with you, I've written to the Chief Commissioner Bush, I've also written to the Chief in Queensland, the Chief in New South Wales and South Australia in and West Australia to introduce my framework of shift work champions. Feedback? I haven't heard any of the well no, I only wrote to them on the weekends. Oh, right, okay. It's literally on the weekend. Um, because I I think we don't want to educate people at recruit level in the academy. People need to have felt the impact of shift work, they need to have actually gone out there and done it. It's one thing to tell you.

SPEAKER_09 10:34

But you're case and imagine of the academies right across Australia. Nobody's going to stand in front of a uh 21, 22, 25-year-old and say, This is what your life is going to look like.

SPEAKER_08 10:44

No, you but you can, but they don't comprehend it until they go back. See, a lot of a lot of programs, like in Victoria, they go through the academy and then they go out, but then they go back again after about six months or eight months, they go back again and they do a week and then they go back out, then they go back in and do another week and then they go back out. That's the time to get them when they've started really feeling, oh my god, this is night shift, this is what it's like, when do I eat? What do I do? But my what I want to do or what I'm trying to bring in now is I've developed a whole framework where we champion people in the workplace and we we educate them so that they are on shift in real time educating the new people.

SPEAKER_09 11:27

133693, come and join us. Look at the uh text line, uh Roger, uh Tone Roger. The anxiety waiting for a shift worker to come home is is it any different between uh waiting for say a teenage adult to teenager an adult home to come home child uh say Friday or Saturday night? I guess mums and dads across uh Australia forever uh as we did had that anxiety for kids coming home.

SPEAKER_08 11:52

Do you know I today I would hate to be waiting for my teenage child to come home? Like it was bad enough when I was doing it, you know, 20 years ago. Knowing what you know now, knowing what I know now. Or even you remember, I was out there working at the time and and seeing it all and knowing what was going on. So it was always such a worry, but today I'd be terrified if my kids were out and not around. Um and and you're right, the anxiety would be very, very similar. Line they're awake. And you mentioned off air just before this of you know, you would go into your parents' room and you'd say, Oh, we're home. We're home at two o'clock in the morning. So you've got to remember your folks were awake waiting for that.

SPEAKER_09 12:33

Dave and Q, say hi to Roger Sutherland. Hi, Dave.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Hi, Roger, how are you going, mate? Good morning, Dave. I've just reapplied to go back to Victoria Police after 20 years away. And I'm just waiting on a yeah, waiting on a contract to come through. Yes. And um As a reservist?

SPEAKER_08 12:49

I'll be back at the academy, mate, for 26 weeks. Oh, so you're going back full time, you're not even going back as a reservist.

SPEAKER_05 12:57

No, I'm going back full-time. I've going there's a pilot program. I've been offly offered the role of a sergeant. Um I left as a leading senior Connie, and I was a detective as well.

SPEAKER_10 13:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 13:08

But the skills and experience you know I've had for the last 20 years outside Victoria Police have been fantastic. And um I can't wait to get back there, mate. I'm just I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_08 13:18

I love it. I love it, Dave. Uh, and the fact that you've been out for 20 years, um, I I can tell you from myself, because you know, I did 40 and I retired, but if obviously go back 20 years, I think one of the biggest things that's lacking in policing today is the experience like what you've got of educating the newer people today, how to drive around, how to catch a crook, how to crawl around factory areas, what to look for, because they just don't know today.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Yeah, no, I know. And I I think it's it's probably multifactorial why, but a lot of the skills of communicating with people, yeah, one-on-one and talking and and meeting people, everything is done online and texting and that, so they probably lack a bit of that. But I I'm really looking forward to going and helping some of the um, you know, the new recruits and um and you know, and talking to crooks and working the streets and um great attitudes, I love it.

SPEAKER_09 14:14

So just a quick just a quick one from me, if I may. What's the reaction to uh family, friends, and loved ones? I'm just gonna say that uh going back uh as to serve.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

I've got four kids. The youngest is 17, two are 18, and one's 22, and they are so excited for me. Really?

SPEAKER_08 14:31

Fantastic. Maybe they might follow you in as well. They might follow you once they see what you're going through. Because if you're gonna go through that 26-week program and they're gonna watch you going through that, maybe you might motivate them to do the same. Like my my daughter's in. My son is a uh a police call taker and and fire dispatcher, my partner is a uh police dispatcher, um, and my son-in-law's in the police as well. You never know what you're gonna motivate, Doug.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

Yeah, yeah. Look, um my two daughters may be interested. I'm not sure if my sons will be interested, but I know in particular, one of my daughters, but she's only

Food Timing And Shift Work Basics

SPEAKER_05 15:12

18. I I think she needs a few more years to just get out of the workforce and skill and then come in.

SPEAKER_08 15:18

Yeah. I I I would make it 25. Uh uh Well done, Dave. I I love it. And people like yourself need to go back and help and with the right attitude, you know, you've got the right attitude to go back in and enjoy it. And I wish you all the very best, great cool, Dave. Well done, you uh Roger.

SPEAKER_09 15:32

I work 12 hour shifts travelling between uh travelling being five, six hundred Ks a night. Partner stresses to the point she tracks my phone to make sure I'm moving. She doesn't need the stress on top of her brain cancer that she's also dealing with.

SPEAKER_08 15:48

Well I know a lot of people that are tracking their you know, tracking their partners. Now, this is not stalking. No, you know, um a lot of people do it, but that creates anxiety in itself. The more we track, the harder it is on our actual bodies. Like, you know, even tracking food, tracking, you know, steps, tracking everything else, it causes us a lot of problems.

SPEAKER_09 16:09

I've been working decades. Uh two, two, two, uh two, two, four roster, two days, two nights, four off. Uh, need to be militant about that routine. Uh sleep at the t at the same times, etc., not easy. Uh we'll take more calls uh coming up. Come and join us wherever you are, right around Australia for shift workers or families of shift workers. 133693. For uh Sydney, 131-873. And for Brisbane, 10382. Roger you'll stay uh till after the news uh what we eat and when we eat. What we eat and when we eat in that order.

SPEAKER_08 16:43

Yeah, well, we can do that. Is it more important what we eat or when we eat?

SPEAKER_09 16:47

It's uh all to come. It's all part of Australia Overnight. Roger Sutherland's here, a healthy shift. I'm Tony Mack. Good morning.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

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SPEAKER_01 18:18

What are the common personality traits of individuals who murder this past?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Why does the Catholic Church have a child abuse problem? I'm criminologist and forensic scientist, Dr. Sandy Mallet.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

And I'm Tim Watson Munro, the criminal psychologist.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Motive and Method will follow our analysis of questions just like these, delving deep into what really makes the offenders tick.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Motive and method is a podcast focused on the facts. The motive behind the criminals.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

The method behind why they do what they do and what we can do about it.

SPEAKER_09 18:54

Roger Sutherland is here. Uh gents, uh, can we read this one? No one under the age of twenty-five should be a police officer. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_08 19:02

Really?

Should Police Be Over 25

SPEAKER_08 19:02

I I've always said that from the outset.

SPEAKER_09 19:05

It says here, this is a really interesting text from uh Margaret. Oh, for those that are just tuning in for the first time, uh Roger Sutherland is here from A Healthy Shift. We talk all things to do with shift work and the cons, the pros, the cons of shift work. Uh we'll get back to that in just a tick. Um this text says, too young, brain not developed, poor reasoning skills, no life experience. How does that age group possibly bring safety and value to community? Is training enough? We'll come back to that. You can answer that shortly. Yep, sure. As for partners of emergency services, workers tracking their other half on the phone. Totally ridiculous. Totally ridiculous. Who's got the problem? If you choose those kind of jobs, you know the issues, so don't whinge. Little harsh. Yeah, that's incredibly harsh. Incredibly harsh. Yep. So many people in emergency service jobs are actually the wrong kind of personality. If that is true, then how do we choose what's the right personality? Well, what is the right personality? You tell me. Uh those not coping with general shift work cops and most nurses in particular should best leave as actually high risk and burden to colleagues who don't complain, says Margaret.

SPEAKER_08 20:13

Okay, can I just address a few of those points from Margaret? I I first of all, with Margaret, I've always said 25 should be the cutoff, not 18. Um, even in some states now, I think now correct me if I'm wrong, we're in uh we're going into Queensland, but I believe that you can actually start and apply when you're 17 in Queensland. So by the time you turn 18, you can start, right? Um that's too young. There's not enough life experience. To do policing, you need to have life experience. What training sheds shed that though? Shed that skin? No, no, no. Training is the training, that it's a sausage factory just to produce people and put them out. You're actually learning on the job from colleagues and peers in the job. Uh you learn the very basics as you're going through the academy. But we're talking about police there. I still think that you need to be at least 25 to do that job. Uh poor reasoning skills, I think that's probably harsh. No life experience. I agree with that. Now, um, as partners of emergency services tracking their phones, uh partners' phones, ridiculous. I agree with that because I think it's disordered, it creates more anxiety. If they're stopped in one place for a long time, they could literally be just talking to someone on the side of the road, and that would cause a problem. So I agree with that. Um, I do not agree with so many people in emergency service jobs, actually the wrong kind of personality. Um, maybe, maybe not, but it's very hard to sort through. Um, it's a reflection of society. Like the Victoria Police has got, I think, approximately 18,000 or 18,000 all up members. Um you're going to get people who are not suited in that. In radio, there's people that are not suited in everywhere there are people that are not suited. It's a reflection on society today. Um, and shift work is literally high risk and a burden to the body.

SPEAKER_09 22:09

The idea of uh a 17, 18, 19 year old going into something like uh police work. I mean it's a bit like even say this job. Yes. You know, as a young announcer at 20, 21, 22, I had no idea what I was doing. But you're not even worldly. All I want to do is play racy records. Yeah, no. Come on, Eileen. No, that was um Some do, some don't. Some girls do. Some girls do it. Well, it's the same thing, isn't it? Come on, Eileen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 22:42

But the thing is, um you know, we at that age. See, I started when I was twenty and I was so wet behind the ears. Like I I really was. I remember turning up to one of my first jobs and Someone saying to me, mate, does your mum and dad know where you are? Like and and it was literally like they'd say, Yeah, of course they do. Like I'm I'm in the police, like, but I didn't realise what they were actually implying because I didn't have the maturity to even know what they were referring to, right? And so I was I would be at work um and I'd be going in sorting really heavy family violent domestics that I I had no. How are you supposed to possibly intervene? Well, I would say to people, because I learnt verbal judo, and verbal judo is is excellent. I would say, yeah, maybe I don't know, but I'm here to help you, so let's try and sort this through. I am here to help you.

SPEAKER_09 23:35

Gavin in Portland, come and join us. Hello, Gav.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Hey mate. Um, what about what about truck drivers who guys all night uh Matt has been doing it for years and years and years, like yourself.

SPEAKER_10 23:47

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

We we we actually know the petig better than not where it's far, but most of the other

Fatigue Rules And The 5am Slump

SPEAKER_03 23:55

sort of people, when you're tired, you pull up and go to sleep.

SPEAKER_08 23:58

But Gavin, the there's regulations around that too, isn't there? Like you know that you're only allowed to drive for so long before you must stop because of the risk. But they don't have that in any and like the police don't have that, paramedics don't have that, nurses don't have that. Like, as a truck driver, he's allowed to be on the road for five hours, then he's got to have a half an hour break. But nurses are expected to go 12 hours. Police are expected to go 12 hours. It's outrageous. Yeah it is. There's no fatigue management. Fatigue management must be better in all of these services.

SPEAKER_09 24:31

So what's a shift for uh most offices around Australia? So they lot that so a changeover would be what, 10 o'clock at night, eleven o'clock at night? Majority, ten, ten or eleven. Through until? Um six or seven. Seven or eight, seven. So so let's call it seven maybe eight.

SPEAKER_08 24:47

Yep, seven, maybe eight.

SPEAKER_09 24:48

Uh so it's a long shift.

SPEAKER_08 24:50

And it's through the worst part of your biological rhythm. It's the time when your body is literally forcing you to sleep. And and and it is. It is the worst. And we've got to remember too, Tony, this one in five people are shift workers now. And this brings me to the point: who teaches people how to optimize their life around shift work? Who teaches them? Because I know that in 40 years in Victoria Place, I started in the academy and I was taught law, I was taught firearms, I was taught everything. But in the whole 14 and a half thousand days that I was in VicPole, and I worked that out the other day. 14 and a half thousand. 14 and a half thousand days, I was never once taught how to go about shift work, optimise it, how to go about when to eat, what to eat, who w how to sleep. So there was no verbal conversation around that at all. And there still isn't today. Never. You learn from your colleagues, and this is not just in the police, this is nursing, paramedics, um, flight attendants, uh, cabin crew, industrial. I can guarantee I would love to hear from someone, someone out there that can ring in and say to me, no, our work sits us down, and every six months we go through a program on how to optimise our lives around shift work. I guarantee no one can ring. Nobody will call. I can guarantee no one will call because they just don't do it today. Which is good to do that. But this is the gap that I've identified. Massive price for community. Well, you see, this is the thing. A lot of organizations, Tony, will not spend the money. But have they actually saved the money by not spending the money in education? Because the bottom line is impacted with unplanned leave, staff leaving, fatigue-related accidents, fatigue-related complaints, burnout, low morale. That's where it comes out in the bottom line. If you don't invest billions of dollars. Billions. Yeah, it does. It costs organizations millions and millions. And I know one soldier falls over and then they just replace them with another one. I understand that. But that soldier's going to fall over as well because there isn't any education on how to actually teach people about how to optimize their life around shift work. And you can with simple strategies.

SPEAKER_09 27:09

Your call's the other side. Come and join us. So if you might be in New South Wales, 131873, rest of 133693. It's Australia Overnight. Good morning. I know, isn't it funny? Uh things that uh people pick up on. Uh close close everything at 12 midnight. Everything closes at midnight. Everything shuts at midnight. No crime, no police needed, no nursing.

SPEAKER_08 27:33

Uh no nursing. While you're in hospital recovering, no one around. Nobody around. No fireys. No fireies. Nothing happens after midnight. No. No, no production. Amazon, your delivery's not getting delivered. Nothing. No. No trucks after after midnight. No trucks. No, no trucks transporting. But you know, um that's that's one. What was the other one that I was going to read here, which was a really good one, too. Um let's take a couple of things. Oh, yes, 5 a.m.'s the hardest. Yeah. A lot of people. Now, I will say this, it's a circadian slump. It's a natural circadian slump in your system. And for those that work overnight, uh a lot of people find, oh, it's so cold. Like I came in here this morning and Jay said, Oh, I feel really cold. It's a natural slump in your system. Jay said he feels cold. Yeah. Well, put a jumper on. Really? He doesn't want to. No, but what happens is a lot of people do. They feel really cold between 3 and 5 a.m. and there's a reason because sorry, Jay. Glenn, hello.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Oh, good morning, guys. How are you going?

SPEAKER_09 28:31

We're well, thank you. You wanted to say, Glenn?

SPEAKER_04 28:33

I just want to say what a very clever idea it was

Education Gaps And Legal Duty Of Care

SPEAKER_04 28:36

with your education on on um on work in the shift hours.

SPEAKER_08 28:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Um it's very, very smart. The actual fact employers would be saving a lot of money by doing that education because you burn out these people and you lose all their experience with them.

SPEAKER_08 28:56

Glenn, how can we not? How is it we are not educating shift workers in shift working organisations? I I don't understand it. We give them all the tools to do the job. They know where to go, they know who to report to, how to operate the machine, we give them the policies, procedures, all the safety requirements, and we don't educate them on how to optimise their lives around shift work. We just give them a roster and say, that's your roster. Are are you a shift worker, Glenn?

SPEAKER_04 29:23

No, I'm not. I've had a brother-in-law who did it for many years, and um you'd see just always tied and just trying to adjust, and then all of a sudden it's on the next ship run, and it's um you know, it's yeah, it's just it So it blows me away that you know education, you know, is not just about how to pull a gun out of a holster or how to um put an ID into an arm or anything like that. It's it's a whole circle of it's a whole circle and uh around people's lifestyles as well. And you know, if you're not managing that then how can you manage for a better outcome and better performance and um in both work and lifestyle and happiness, family happiness.

SPEAKER_08 30:04

100%, Clint. Um, and I believe it's about optimizing shift workers' lives outside of their job. Yeah. That's what I do because when you've got a really good work-life balance outside of your job, you come to work optimal, ready to do the job. Like we're giving we're giving police officers and we're giving paramedics drugs. We're giving nurses drugs to administer, doctors working night shift, drugs. Um, and we're giving police firearms. But we're not educating them in fatigue management around that, and we're just allowing them to be out there and doing this while they're really, really struggling, and just saying, oh mate, that's just part of shift work. It's almost uh Glenn. Who was who are we talking to?

SPEAKER_09 30:47

Glenn Gregor, thank you, Glenn was the it's almost neglectful.

SPEAKER_08 30:53

It's derelict. Tears. It's derelict. And you know, there's a new regulation in state in Victoria here, um, which is the psychosocial health regulations as well, where there is a moral oblig a written legal obligation now on organisations to do a lot more for their staff around those things. Lots of great calls. Jim in Sydney, morning.

SPEAKER_06 31:14

Good berry, good morning. Um I just wanted to make a comment. I've been a

A Real Wellbeing Guide And Wrap

SPEAKER_06 31:18

shift work worker for about 24 years with ambulance, and I'm now involved with education um for the communications team. So that's our triple zero call takers and dispatchers. And um we do briefly touch on um shift work and um look, it could be better, absolutely. But we have developed a program where it's called the Shift Workers Guide to Wellbeing, and it's something that's available in hard copy or on the internet.

SPEAKER_08 31:47

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 31:48

Um our new staff members can access and get a little bit of a um an idea about how to um go about shift work. It's 12 hour days and 12 hour nights, and on the road it can be longer than that if you get it that late job. Um and my my experience would be different, so I can pass on my experience and just give advice, but um it's really individual, so they would have to work out their own routine. But we're getting better because I remember 24 years ago we had nothing like that. So we're trying we're trying.

SPEAKER_08 32:17

Gemma, I'd love this. I'd love to connect um offline in relation to this because I think what you're doing and the way you're going about it is a credit to you and the organization with what you're doing. And I have experience with Triple Zero as well, because I worked there for 12 years, so I know the other side of that as well from the police perspective.

SPEAKER_09 32:35

So Jem, if uh if you're still there, Jam, could you send an email to us at overnights plural overnights at 3aw.com.au.

SPEAKER_08 32:46

Yeah, I'd love to connect.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

Okay, no problem. Thank you.

SPEAKER_09 32:50

And then I'll flick that through to uh Roger and uh and connect because I think there could be a couple of uh projects come out of that. Well done, Jim. Jam, well done. We will do this when we come back. Uh more of your calls. The Brecky program's getting underway very shortly as well. Uh Jimmy Bartel, Mark Allen, sitting in for 3AW Breckie. And Heidi Murphy, I think,'s uh looking after the show from Tom this morning uh from 8.30 as well. It's all part of Australia overnight. Good morning. As we do, we run out of time. Uh your favourite, 3AW Brickie, with Jimmy Bartell and uh Mark Allen uh getting underway. You'll hang around and take them in their coffee, scones fan them, feed them grapes. You will. Now, if people would like to know more about uh what you do, a healthyshift.com is the website, healthyshift.com.

SPEAKER_08 33:45

Uh Instagram at underscore a underscore healthy underscore shift. And also I run the podcast, A Healthy Shift, which is the Shift Workers Podcast. Oh. Episode 421, I think I just dropped this morning. 421? 421. When am I going to be a guest? Do you want to be a guest? Not particularly. Okay. That's it. I come and be a guest on your channel.

SPEAKER_09 34:07

Well, you do, but you haven't asked.

SPEAKER_08 34:10

Well, I'll see you. I might not see you next fortnight.

SPEAKER_09 34:14

I'll see you in a couple of weeks' time. God willing. Thank you. Uh Jimmy and Mark Riddle go through our W uh Breckie Heidi just after eight thirty. It's Tony Mack for Australia Overnight.