SPEAKER_04: 1:55

How long for Roger? Two years. We've been getting it away for two years. Roger, a former police officer, uh, worked with the dogs for a long time. How many years were the dogs? Uh seventeen.

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

How many dogs did you coach? Five. Uh do they love you still? Uh uh well, yes. They would. They would if they were still around, maybe. But they would they're all gone. They've all gone to the big kennel in the sky.

SPEAKER_04: 2:19

Roger is a uh veteran law enforcement officer. Uh how many decades? Four. Five decades. Yeah, and outstanding in many, many ways. These days uh it's all about shift work and uh issues related to uh shift work, and we all like a really good shift. Uh workers uh and the energy to do things uh just amazing, really, outside this shift working lives. So we talk about all of that and a little bit of law and order. If you'd like to be part of the program, uh you we've cleared the lines, you'll get through straight away after Dennis's program. Uh here on 3AW 133. 693 is the number 133693. Uh the text line, unfortunately, is still uh, for whatever reason, not working. Uh and so uh hopefully it will be back on deck later today. That will be the plan. And if not, uh Jackson and I will come in and we will repair it manually. Uh do you have any idea how that would work, Jackson? No. No. I think that's a good idea. Why don't we just give your mobile number out? I can text you. Just text me on my personal mobile. How do you think that'd go? Fantastic. Although we could do it to yours, Jackson. Oh, yeah, why not? That's right. Do it to yours when it could be inundated from around Australia. Um Roger, hello. Hello, how are you? Well, more importantly, you spent a bit of time with the uh briefly, and I I don't know you wanted this probably thing's part of the conversation you're going to talk about, uh, but you had the uh ear of uh the commission uh here in Victoria. Uh you were impressed, you were delighted, and he listened.

SPEAKER_03: 3:58

I actually rang you afterwards, didn't I? I was really keen. Um I was at the Police Association's retirement dinner. It was my retirement dinner. Well, when I say mine, it was one of 246 people that retired.

SPEAKER_04: 4:12

246.

SPEAKER_03: 4:14

Yeah, people that retired. They're people that have done over 25 years that were invited to the event. Um the chief is normally invited. My understanding is the chief doesn't normally attend, but Mike Bush wanted to go, he wanted to observe, he wanted to listen. And um he was sitting just behind us and he was watching very interestingly. He came to he ended up coming standing near our table, and we got to have a chat. Um I've as you know, I've had my struggles exiting Vic Pole. Um we've talked about that. But Mike noticed that I was standing in the group, turned, looked at me, put his hand out, shook my hand, and said, Um, Mike Bush introduced himself to me. Um and then he pulled me in and said, How long did you do, Roger? And I said, I did 40 years. And he pulled me in further and he said, Thank you for your service. Yeah, well. And that just meant absolutely everything to me. It was just uh I I can't tell you as an extra and an ex is always an ex for a long time, obviously, but it just meant so much because the issues that happened to me wasn't under his watch. And um it just meant a lot. He's a very uh he's just got an aura about him. He's a very good man, I think, Mike Bush.

SPEAKER_04: 5:18

That's a fantastic story.

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

Yes, I think he's gonna be a good man.

SPEAKER_04: 5:21

And I think and I hope I'm not talking out of school. He made the point as if he was talking to other retirees, uh albeit a little bit tug-in-cheek, but with some sort of sense of uh possibility, uh, would you come back? Would you like to come back?

SPEAKER_03: 5:34

He uh I think most of the people that he actually spoke to on that night, um when he found out, no, like he would say after 40 years, he said, Do you want to come back? Um I I I think, and I don't know this, I'm not this is not something that he said to me, but I think you're gonna find that um just uh reading the tea leaves at the moment with the way he's talking, I wouldn't mind betting there's gonna be an advertising campaign over the next 12 months to try and encourage ex-police to come back and sit in the stations and do not the admin, but to do the answer the phones and do the watch house counter and things like that so that these stations can reopen. I I was talking to a uh a friend of mine who's a superintendent the other day, his son's in the police, and he was saying that he turns up for work um and he's busting his chops, he wants to get out on the truck, you know, he wants to get out on the van and go out and patrol, and he gets there and then he finds out that someone's gone sick, so he's got to stay in and work the watch house. Well, that's just a don't get me wrong, but when we can have ex police that would be happy to do something along those lines, go in, answer phones, do watch house counter duties, why not? Even if you got uh a hundred to do it, that's a hundred more police that are back out on the road.

SPEAKER_04: 6:48

Uh what about the costs associated with things like lawnmower? A little birdie said to me uh no names, no pack to have made the point that even things like grass cutting around police stations all around the state. At this point, I no doubt would apply in other uh states as well, I would assume. I don't know, but I'm thinking there might be some issues around that. That to get the lawns mowed, or get the gardens kept, to get the officers clean, the budget is zero.

SPEAKER_03: 7:12

I can absolutely categorically tell you I live in Avondale Heights, and I know the Avondale Heights police station lawns are being mowed by a local Italian man who can't stand seeing it growing because the budget's been cut to all of the major well, all of the police stations. There's just no money left to mow the lawns and maintain the places, so they're being done by members of the public.

SPEAKER_04: 7:34

No surprise to most. No surprise. That we just in that sense, it's not an issue. It's not a uh priority. No. And we're broke.

SPEAKER_03: 7:45

Horribly broke. We're horribly broke. And and um and I think Victoria Police is running on a budget at the moment that uh is we know because it's been spoken about so often that we have a thousand members off, positions off. Um what happens when they return? Who's paying them, how are they paying them, what are they doing about it? Um I think it's we're in a bit of a mess at the moment, but I I I have a lot of faith in uh what Mike Bush has been talking about at the moment. Uh I he to me, and I know it's very early days, but he's got the McMillers about him. Yeah going back. I love that expression. He's got the McMillas about him. A good thing. It's a very, very good thing. I graduated under McMiller in 1984, yeah, and he was a extremely highly thought-of leader. Leader. Really highly thought-of leader. I I get the feeling that Mike Bush is probably he's probably he's got a bit of the McMillers about him. He's got that tall stature, he's very clean, he's got a real when I say clean, he's clean-shaven, he's he's just a really clean um he's a good man. Yeah. I think he's gonna be a really good man.

SPEAKER_04: 8:50

So uh uh as you say the name McMiller, I instantly think of, remember we'd have registration stickers on our car. Yes. I reckon his name was on registration stickers at that time. As well as the Commission of Police.

SPEAKER_03: 9:03

Could have owned what could have owned when we had the Regio labels. The Regio labels. God, there's something to talk about. The Regio labels on the wall. Just to drive around looking to see what market was so that you could see if it had expired. It was the Orange Seven, so you knew it expired in July. Oh God. I know.

SPEAKER_04: 9:21

Registration labels, they were a thing. And even putting them on your car, your first car, maybe your second car, get him and it's just graphing him off when the new one came up.

SPEAKER_03: 9:30

The windscreen as well, they keep them going.

SPEAKER_04: 9:32

We've got a very special guest coming up. Uh, from Ireland, we're going to cross over to Ireland very quickly.

SPEAKER_03: 9:36

It's uh Tom Coleman. I'm very, very excited to have Tom on the uh on the show tonight. Uh what do we need to know briefly about Tom before we get him on? Tom is a sleep expert, a worldwide sleep expert, and he brings amazing insight into the architecture of sleep for us. Now, we don't want him to be too effective, obviously, because we want people to stay away. But we want people to understand that um how we can go about sleep and what the problem is with it.

SPEAKER_04: 10:03

He's in Dublin. We'll get him on the line. Next is Australia Overnight. I'm Tony McManus. Roger Sutherland is here. The segment is called A Healthy Shift. We look at some law and order issues, but we really look at how important it is to get the right rest, the right diet, if you like, uh, around those that work shift work right across Australia. Come and join us wherever you are, 133 693. Hello, wherever you are, right across Australia. Tony McManus is here. That's m uh the one and only Roger Sutherland, a healthy shift. We've got a very special guest. Let me introduce Tom Coleman, uh, who is a sleep expert. He's from Dublin. From Dublin. Uh he's a good boy. Uh the cost of insomnia is insufficient sleep business. It costs it costs the world, if you like, uh untold amount of money insomnia and the lack of sleep for uh a range of reasons, which no doubt he might explain. Well, insomnia, for example, cost the average US worker uh about 11.3 days, two point two thousand two hundred and eighty dollars loss productivity every year productivity. It's a major issue. He's been talking about it for a long time. He's known as a sleep and health consultant, and uh from you tell me he's a great bloke. Tremendous man. Tom Coleman, I'm Tony Mack. Uh, you know, Roger. Hello, and welcome to Australia Overnight, Tom.

SPEAKER_01: 11:17

Uh it's wonderful to be uh online with you guys. Uh thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_04: 11:21

Uh, how did you become involved, Tommy?

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

I initially worked in nutrition. I I qualified as a health scientist about 17 years ago. I got to work with very high-level elite athletes, and I became obsessed really with recovery. And I asked the question, what has the biggest impact on recovery? And much to my surprise at the time, the answer came back as sleep. And from that, then I worked alongside a US company called Fatigue Science, where I was analyzing the sleep of elite athletes, and I could correlate that with reaction times and mental fatigue. So that was about 10, 11 years ago, and since that all I've been speaking about is uh the power of sleep.

SPEAKER_03: 13:31

Now, Tom, I over the um years now, particularly over the last few years, a lot of sports teams like the NBL uh or the MBA, as well as the I know the Aussie Socceros as well, are really focusing on getting this circadian alignment and getting their sleep right, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01: 13:51

Absolutely. I mean, look, the Australian Institute of Sport, they're a global leader, and I from what I know they're they're focusing more on the recovery aspect and the sleep aspect. I mean, the science on strength and conditioning, on training, on nutrition, on all of that is is pretty well laid out. And there are many percentages to be gained then when we start looking at something like sleep. Because sleep isn't the one or two percent, it's the foundation that performance is built upon, really.

SPEAKER_03: 14:24

Yeah, and look, we've we're in a big country here because we we have listeners from West Australia here as well as in Victoria, which are on opposite sides of the country, and we have our sports teams travelling backwards and forwards across three time zones, and this impacts greatly. But a lot of teams are now focusing on making sure that they get their circadian alignment right. Can you just talk a bit about that for us, Tom? About how and why this is so important for performance.

SPEAKER_01: 14:54

Absolutely. Um, when I worked with Fatigue Science, they had just started working with the Chicago Cubs and the Seattle Seahawks. Now, the Chicago Cubs won the World Series for the first time in 106 years, the year after they started tracking their sleep. And the same with the Seattle Seahawks, they actually won the Super Bowl the year after this the full team started to analyze the travel, the circadian disruption, and and to start to put strategies in place. So your circadian rhythm, I mean, the word circadian means circa is approximately and DN is a day, approximately a day. And every human, animal, plant and system on Earth has a circadian rhythm. So it really is about biology and strategy. It doesn't just govern your sleep, it governs everything from digestion to concentration levels, all of your hormones, and different processes that happen happen over approximately 24 hours. And it's a two-way communication, right? So although it is internally driven, we can certainly help align and realign our circadian rhythm. And that's where the little bit of knowledge for the shift worker, for example, uh, or the the sports performance person is is really critical.

SPEAKER_03: 16:11

Yeah, it's super important. What's the um what is the architecture of good sleep, Tom? Like we what people say, oh, I'm just not a good sleeper. Can you just elaborate on this when someone says they're not a good sleeper, I've got an answer for that. I'm sure you've got a better answer.

SPEAKER_01: 16:27

Well, my answer to that is it's a skill we learn. It's it's the first thing is the narrative, Roger, right? It's it's like if you keep repeating that, well, of course it's it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Um now we we there are genetics and chronotypes we can talk about that certainly influence, but you know, the expression of those genes and and and the expression is is is a different story altogether. But sleep is a skill. Much of the issues, many of the issues that people have is their is their inability to wind down and an inability to to work with their circadian rhythm and understand that and apply that then in the real world. So I suppose the first thing is change the narrative and be open to trying different things with sleep. And it it takes time as well. This is the thing. I mean, if I made a suggestion to you, and I've done this in the past and around sleep, and this guy said, you know, I tried that, it didn't work. I said, How many times did you try it? And he was like, Well, once. I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't go to the gym once and say, Well, that didn't work, did it? Right? So we have to give it a chance.

SPEAKER_04: 17:34

Absolutely. It's uh it's an intriguing thing on the basis that uh uh hosting an overnight radio programme, Tom, uh daily people will say, Oh, how do you go with the sleep? And I have a tendency to be a bit glib, and I know I shouldn't, but I will often make the comment, it well, it's not like I'm going down the coal mines. In other words, it's a pretty good job, and you manage what you have to do when you eat, when you shower, when you uh frankly, when you go to the bathroom, uh you've got to manage all that uh except that you're doing it in in the uh night hours.

SPEAKER_01: 18:10

Exactly, absolutely. But it does have to be managed. It it does have to be managed. I think what happens to people, uh excuse me, is they float along. They kind of fall into the river of life or a a job like that, and think, oh, this is great. And and they don't put any strategies in place. And they just kind of they're burning the candle then at both ends, maybe. So I think you know, understanding the mechanics of sleep, like exactly how it works, can really help. You talk about melaton secretion and something called sleep pressure. This is what puts you to sleep. But we have to kind of build a bridge to that, and we have to we have to understand that we sleep in 90-minute cycles, for example. We have to use naps strategically. When should I take a 10, 20, 30 minute nap? Or maybe maybe I need a uh a 90-minute nap here prior to heading into a night shift. So it's kind of understanding these things, nutrition, food. I mean, all of these systems speak to each other. Every system has a timer, every in fact, every cell in your body has a timer. So you can train this, and I suppose it's it's understanding the rhythm of your work. Energy management is another huge thing that I speak about, mental energy and physical energy. So it's understanding these kinds of concepts, and actually it's empowering because you then you can actually do something about your your lack of energy, your fatigue, or your lack of sleep.

SPEAKER_03: 19:34

I tell people one of the most important things to note is that your body is dictating the time, not the clock on the wall. And I think this is the most important thing for people to understand. Do you agree with that theory, Tom?

SPEAKER_01: 19:48

No, absolutely, because we have the societal clock, um, which which doesn't actually work for you know, it works for a certain cohort, it doesn't work for everyone. But we have to understand our biological clock exactly correct, Roger. And that's understanding that your body takes a little bit of time to realign and catch up. We we cannot just switch off and switch on, and that's the thing, and that's the struggle maybe for the shift worker. They're at work and they feel like, oh man, I could fall asleep. And they're at home when they should be sleeping, maybe, and you know, they're struggling, they're they're rolling around the bed like a rotisserie chicken. But again, there are things that we can set up that will that will ultimately really help us down regulate and switch off and achieve sleep. And even if you do wake up, and this is a huge one again, it's the wake episode that people will experience.

SPEAKER_04: 20:44

Uh Tom Coleman, our very special guest, is uh in Dublin as we speak. It's a thrill to have him on board talking about the ideas. And when we come back, Tom, we might talk about the idea of uh the pressures that puts on family friends. I mean, you look at ambos across Australia, you look at police across Australia, uh nursing hospitals, doctors, surgeons, all working across uh 24-hour period. What strain does that put on family and family life? We'll talk about that. Uh, you can jump on board if you have a question you'd like to put to Tom Coleman while we're live from Dublin 133 693 is their number. Come and join us. Roger Sutherland is here, part of Australia overnight, and a regular contributor here from a healthy shift. Our very special guest is Tom Coleman, a sleep expert, sleep and health consultant uh based in Ireland. Uh, do you ever get away from Dublin, Tom?

SPEAKER_01: 21:33

I do indeed, yeah. I get to travel around a bit. Uh thankfully though, I was in Milan uh last week talking about sleep. I'm in Dubai in uh November, so it's it's turning into a global um job for me, which is great.

SPEAKER_03: 21:47

So exciting, Tom. I love seeing this from you going out there, spreading the good word. Um, I wanted to ask you a question if I can to help our listeners here. People say, Oh, I'm not a good sleeper and I can't sleep. Can you give us some strategies that when a person wakes up in the middle of the night, like you you've you've been asleep, you wake up in the middle of the night, and you start to get those racing thoughts and you can't sleep. Sure. What should you do, Tom? Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

Absolutely. Okay, so the first thing to understand is that wake episodes, as we refer to them as, are very common. They're happening for a reason. When you fall asleep initially, you're going to have more time in deep sleep. And then as your sleep goes on, it gets lighter, and also the sleep pressure drops. So it's it's very understandable to wake up, and especially if you get into the habit, you can inadvertently train your brain. So the first thing is don't give yourself a hard time. Because what does everyone do? Grab the phone, check the time, just find it by the light. Do the calculation and get stressed out, okay?

SPEAKER_03: 22:47

And start the committee moding in the head. Everyone starts the committee mode.

SPEAKER_01: 22:51

Absolutely. So we're hardwired to worry. I mean, the reason we're successful as a species is we can look into the future and predict danger. Now, unless you give your brain some chewing gum, I call it cognitive chewing gum, guess what it's going to do? It's going to go towards the to-do list tomorrow or what somebody said to you in work earlier, or whatever it may be, worry. So I would say to reframe it for you, don't focus on getting back to sleep, focus on relaxation. Because there's no end point to that, really. Whereas if you say I have to get back to sleep, then you're setting a limit on it. So I would recommend something like a visualization exercise, like I love going trekking, so I would imagine myself there. Give your mind a simple task like that and come back to the body. And sleep will then arrive. Sleep will then come. And this takes a little time maybe to practice, because as I said, you could have inadvertently trained your brain to wake you up.

SPEAKER_03: 23:52

Very good. I've got another one too. Um imagine yourself stepping into an elevator and the elevator going down and counting the floors as it's going down. So you step into an elevator and then you just imagine it going down, going down, close your eyes, and you can feel the sensation of the elevator going down, down, down, down, down. You rarely get to the bottom. You rarely get to the bottom. It's what you're what you're saying is right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:20

Yeah, I mean the US military train all their recruits on how to fall asleep quickly, and and they report a 98% success rate after six weeks, not two nights, after six weeks, but they it's something you can train and get really, really good at. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 24:34

Uh clumsily I made the point the uh cost to community and to businesses uh across Australia, if you like, Tom, uh across the world, but across Australia, would be horrendous because for the most part my assertion would be issues around sleep and fatigue have not been uh addressed as much as they should have been.

SPEAKER_01: 24:56

No, I mean look at it's it's it's a it's a business leak. If you have sleep issues, it's often just seen as lots of well-being issue. It's like the alarm is going off. See, sleep is the result of how we're living our life. It's a barometer to see how well you're dealing with stress. And it like a person comes to me and says, Oh, I've got sleep issues, and they're stressed out of their mind, and they've got you know, two phones, they're checking emails at night, relationship builds. I mean, they don't really, they have they have um lifestyle choice issues, boundary issues. And an organization can have these issues, and that's like the the alarm going off, right? That there's deeper issues there, and and they want they want me to stop the sound of the alarm while the building is on fire. So I think if you if you look at all the other stuff, because as a you know, I I've worked with people individually, I don't look at their sleep essentially. I ask them a lot of questions about how they're living their life, and then if I move things out of the way, guess what? The sleep comes right, and then everything else improves. But I mean there's a lot of research out there from McKinsey on it from Deloitte. Uh so these, you know, um they reckon you can save up to three and a half thousand per employee annually if you have a sleep program in your organization.

SPEAKER_04: 26:12

Uh say hello to uh Niv in Lee and Geth. Niv Mike Coleman's on here, and uh you can ask him a question. What have you got?

SPEAKER_02: 26:20

Good morning, gentlemen. Um, everybody. I've I've been diagnosed with sleep apnea for probably the last 20 years. I've got a sleep apnea change. And the biggest change in my life is my wife changed the big thing for whatever you don't have to do. Sorry. That's correct. And my wife changed the bed and I've never swept I've never swept better in the water.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

She changed she changed the bed, did she?

SPEAKER_02: 27:10

No, no, no, she changed the base of the bed.

SPEAKER_01: 27:15

Ah, she changed the base of the bed. Absolutely fantastic. CPAP is is look, I'm I'm I'm I'm very happy to hear you have it diagnosed. Are you using the CPAP machine?

SPEAKER_02: 27:25

Yes, I am because Vic Rhodes are involved and I've got to use it to keep me licensed. Um the last couple of weeks since she's changed that base, the the bed feels higher, it feels better, it's more firmer. And I just can't believe like I've gone from maybe twenty or thirty uh episodes an hour down to about six in the last week.

SPEAKER_01: 27:51

That's amazing. I mean, look at it's it's the first thing to look at, really. It's it sounds obvious, right? I mean, you spend at least well, I'm hoping you spend about eight hours a night, which is about thirty-six percent of your life asleep, and your bed is is critical to that. Keeping, you know, support because what happens with sleep apnea and snoring is there's a collapse in the tissues of the neck, and that can close the airway with with sleep apnea, the airways being closed. So having proper alignment in in your bed and support can help keep that airway open. You're you're using the gold standard when it comes to the CPAP machine for sleep apnea, and it is a serious condition. So I'm I'm really happy that you've you've you've dealt with that. Um, I mean I'm I'm happy to hear also that your your sleep has improved, but it's it's obviously the alignment there because it can be mechanical, it can be caused by various issues, including uh you know a narrow airway. But if you're having success with it and avoiding alcohol and keeping the weight down and not smoking and all those other things, then you're doing fantastically well. Yeah, because they're all related.

SPEAKER_04: 28:55

Do you want to say something?

SPEAKER_03: 28:56

Yeah, Tom, one of the things that we we do totally underrate. You made the point, but one of the things we underrate is is looking at our own bedding, looking at the mattress, looking at the sheets, you know. I I I tell my shift workers when they get out of bed after their week of night shift to put the sheets in the wash, to put fresh sheets on because everyone loves sleeping in fresh shoots. But looking at new a new mattress, looking at a new pillow, finding the right pillow, the right temperature in your room, we underestimate all of the impacts that these things have, don't we?

SPEAKER_01: 29:29

Absolutely. Look, sleep is a game of percentages, right? Now I was lucky enough to to be given a bed. I was a brand ambassador for a for a bed company in Ireland. They gave me this fantastic bed, and I'll tell you what, we've had it now for the last two or three years, and I've said, look, I I would easily pay like two or three thousand for this, no problem, because it's instantly improved my sleep, and I cannot feel any movement from you know my partner, your partner, it's it's independently strong bed. It's just amazing. So it's it's an investment in your health, I would say. So first place to look, low-lying food.

SPEAKER_04: 30:07

Hey uh Rob in Melbourne Town, say hello to uh Tom in Dublin.

SPEAKER_01: 30:46

Yeah, well look, a proper assessment is is really important. So the events that are happening are your you're either what they describe as an event is you're you're you're stopping breathing. Right? And you it's usually this happens in stage three sleep, which is the deepest part of your sleep. So they will assess you based on how many events per hour you have, and then you'll qualify as having sleep apnea or not. Um there is uh a health risk. It sleep apnea is can raise your blood pressure, increase your risk for cardiovascular disease and and things like that. So it's really important that you get a handle on it. As you're a driver as well, driver fatigue. I mean, you're at danger there if you're not if you build up what we call sleep dead, if you miss out on sleep every night, um, then you're you're more at risk then when it comes to uh falling asleep, or or experiencing what isn't what are known as micro sleeps, where you don't even realize you've been asleep for a few seconds and they're uncontrollable and you kind of predict them. So I suppose you know the events are stopping breathing, that's what they're speaking about, and you know, that proper assessment. You know, there is a test online called the stop bang test. You can look that up, it's a series of questions to see if you fit into the category. But um, you know, I think I think have a chat to your GP. I mean I mean, how do you feel? Not maybe after you wake up, how do you feel throughout the day, throughout the shift? That's something to to consider. You feel like you're tired of falling asleep, drowsiness, things like that, energy levels.

SPEAKER_04: 32:22

All of the above. Uh Rob, thank you. It's a great call. Uh when we come back, more of your calls. 133693, Roger Sutherland's here. I'm Tony Mack. And uh Tom Coleman, sleep and health consultant expert based in Dublin, more the other side of this. Roger Sutherland, regular contributor to the Australia Overnight Programme, a healthy shift. And our special guest is Tom Coleman in Dublin. Uh just an off air caller. Uh, Tom asked the question uh ADHD, people that have ADHD. Uh LinkedIn uh occasionally, sometimes always to sleep issues. Connected?

SPEAKER_01: 32:56

Yeah, I I find I mean they have great difficulty with sleep onset. Uh it's kind of uh you know, winding down. Um anyone on the spectrum will tend to have um issues around sleep. Um so I mean your your your routine is is critically important here that you establish a good routine uh in the in the one to two hours leading up to bed leading up to bedtime and it's about it's about winding down on stress because as as Roger will know I've I I say that the same systems that that control stress control sleep. So it's being highly activated, and it's a bit like the phone at night, it's about the text being on the phone. Uh if you're scrolling, well, I mean that's the activity that's stimulating the brain and the systems. So if you if there's any level of overstimulation, whether it be from ADHD or your phone, then guess what?

SPEAKER_03: 33:48

You're you're gonna struggle with sleep and then you're gonna be tired and it's and it's also it's a two it's a two-way pathway as well, isn't it, Tom? Like um we see a lot of people that suffer with with poor sleep also have poor mental health.

SPEAKER_01: 34:02

Absolutely. I mean the thing, Roger, and and you you've hit the nail on the head, in one hundred percent of mental health issues there are sleep issues. Yes. It's it's it's it's a two-way, it's a two-way issue. So um it's it's critically important that we kind of and and I know uh you alluded to the um isolation and the loneliness earlier on. I mean there was a report done by the World Health Organization fairly recently to say that it's loneliness and isolation are really on the increase, it's impacting mental health, and of course it's all they're they're all tied up together, then your sleep is absolutely uh impacted as well.

SPEAKER_03: 34:38

So that that a lot of that comes from the poor light too, doesn't it, Tom? Like a lot of people like through COVID, a lot of people were spending a lot of time indoors where they're under that unhealthy light and they're not getting that daylight. Can you s speak about how important getting daylight is? Because I think this is a key contributor for a lot of people. They spend too much time inside. Inside, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:59

Oh, I think I think Roger, we've we've removed ourselves from the two things that really protect our health, and that's the environment and other people. Now we talk about light. Light in sleep science is known as the master uh when it comes to uh being a lever on your circadian rhythm. It's the number one zeitgerber or time giver. So, what happens with light? When we get lots of light in the brain, we get lots of something called serotonin. And serotonin is needed to make the sleep hormone melatonin. Like when we were kids, we were sent outside. I get outside to play. Um, I can hear my mother saying, you know, it's the fresh air. You you get a great night's sleep. So the more the more light you get when you're active, then actually the higher your melatonin levels will be, and the higher your serotonin will be. So you're you're reducing the risk of things like seasonal affective disorder or uh just other other areas which which uh light can really impact.

SPEAKER_03: 35:59

Yeah. And when we get that light, it is just so important, and we don't realise getting that early light in the morning is what sets us up for sleep at night. And I one thing that I just wanted to talk about is a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04: 36:12

Or sleep anytime, really. We just assume that we're talking also about people who, by definition, because of their their job, have to sleep during the day.

SPEAKER_03: 36:20

Yeah. Well we do, but we've also got to adjust we are still diurnal creatures and we still need where you can't live in a night, you can't become a nocturnal human. I do. How well do you how do you do that, Edward? Yeah, well, that's always the good question, isn't it, Tom? How well do you do it?

SPEAKER_04: 36:41

Well, this is my final program of Australia overnight, and it's been lovely to talk to you all.

SPEAKER_03: 36:46

I I think uh I think one of the best contributing factors for us to look at is when we travel, and majority of us that are listening will have travelled and travelled across time zones. When we travel overseas, what do we do? How is it we retrain our time clock? And it's always with we get up early, we eat at the new time zone times breakfast, lunch, dinner. Um, we're getting early movement as well, so it re-entrains our time clock to that time zone. Um and correct. So and it takes a few days, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 37:19

It it takes a few days. The the the first light that you mentioned does several things to the brain, okay? So the first light after waking, whether that's at 6 a.m. or 2 p.m., your first light, the first and brilliant thing it does is it clears the grogginess. I talked to you earlier about sleep pressure. That's a chemical called adenosine that builds up. So the chemical of adenosine is what is what pushes you and keeps you asleep. When we wake in the morning and you're really tired and you're hitting the snooze button, it's because there's lots of adenosine floating around. And what most people do is go downstairs and drink coffee. Now, coffee will block the the tiredness receptor in the brain, and then six or eight hours later it it floods back in. The fastest way to clear that adenosine naturally is light. If, for example, you're waking up at 2 a.m., you have to get up or 12 o'clock, a light box is a really good idea because that will clear that. It also sets a timer in your brain for melatonin release 14, 16 hours later. Okay? Light is important. And the other thing it does is it boosts cortisol levels. And and you want that early when when you wake up or whatever time you're waking up at cortisol activation, right? Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03: 38:29

Tom, we want to say thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04: 38:32

Uh it's a it's just a delight, thrill to have you on the program. Uh, if people want to know more, they can have a look at your website, which is tomcolman.ie. That's www. all the w's tomcolman.ie is the best way to do it, Tommy.

SPEAKER_01: 38:48

Gentlemen, it's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope to see you in person someday soon. Well, when are you coming to Australia?

SPEAKER_04: 38:53

Have you been to much to Australia?

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

Not yet, but um, it's definitely on the cards, my friend. Yeah, I've got a lot of friends out there working shifts, and um I've got a lot of I've got family out there, so it's only a matter of time.

SPEAKER_03: 39:05

There's some great Irish people here too. Ian Dunniken and and I've I've had dinner with Danny Lennon and uh Josh. All of the Irish people that have that have escaped Ireland, they're great people.

SPEAKER_04: 39:15

All right, we'll get you over for March 13, March 17.

SPEAKER_01: 39:18

Oh, that that'll be great. So, yeah, special shout out to Julian Doyle and and Fred English there in Oz. They're doing great work over there.

SPEAKER_04: 39:24

Fantastic. Thank you, Tom. We could go wrong. Thank you so much, guys. Uh, how wonderful is he, Tom Coleman. Just fantastic, man.

SPEAKER_03: 39:31

He does great work.

SPEAKER_04: 39:32

Uh we will have this and we'll come back uh more in just a moment for Australia Overnight. Hello. You said he was really good, Rog, Tom Coleman.

SPEAKER_03: 39:39

He was a fabulous guest, wasn't he? Another Irishman doing fantastic things here. A lot of Irish are doing really good things in the research area for shift workers. Um doing great work. Um Ian Dunikan's over in Perth doing a lot for the FIFOs, for the fly-in-fly out um shift workers up there doing great work for them as well. So uh another Irish man. So uh yeah, it's he's really, really good. Only bring the best, of course, if I were to put something like that.

SPEAKER_04: 40:06

Thank you very much. Uh Tomcolem.ie. The website is tomcolman.ie. Uh thank you for coming in. That hour just flies past the room.

SPEAKER_03: 40:14

I know it's it always does, it flies, but having great guests like that really helped. Um, it was really good. Um I ran a seminar yesterday for the police women in Victoria Police. Victoria Police.

SPEAKER_04: 40:26

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03: 40:26

Victoria Police how many? I had uh 24 people in the room and I had 22 online watching on the team. Anybody looking for seminars for Two Quick? Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04: 40:39

We'll talk again a couple of weeks' time. Uh website healthy.