Speaker 1: 1:11

In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. We love it when Roger's here, a healthy shift or otherwise, we'll take your calls as well, wherever you are Right around Australia. 133693.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Do you?

Speaker 1: 1:32

want to take some calls before we even chat.

Speaker 2: 1:34

Yeah, why not? I'm just in a bit of a chatty mood.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Having said that, we've got a very special guest on the program coming up with you Cannot wait, we're going to talk about sleep. She is known as the wonderful Dr Olivia Walsh.

Speaker 3: 1:46

Who's written a book called and it's called Sleep Groove, and I've got it in my hand Sleep Groove why your body clock is so mixed up and what to do about it. Oh, so much to talk about.

Speaker 1: 1:57

We'll get to the good doctor very shortly. Let's kick it off with a couple of calls here. Who have we got waiting in the wings?

Speaker 4: 2:06

Ardy morning, good morning Tony McInnes and Roger, and I'd say it's Jackson, if I'm right. Yeah, all the teams here you wanted to say Arthur. Yeah, first of all something funny before I ask Roger, a quick question.

Speaker 1: 2:19

We need something funny. It's time of the morning.

Speaker 4: 2:22

I'm not sure, but I heard a caller say as I was driving last night I've got a bid, can I call the show? And I started laughing, thinking what's that got to do with calling the show?

Speaker 1: 2:33

Because I think it was a reference to the fact that many, many years ago I did a bit of an audition for a TV role and it turned out I didn't get the role. This is many years ago, 40 years ago, I was a mere kid and anyway. So I didn't get the role. Because they said, oh well, you've got a beard. And I'm thinking, well, had I known that I could have taken off the beard.

Speaker 3: 2:59

They didn't tell you. Yeah, they didn't tell me, and so then?

Speaker 1: 3:03

a listener, then texted and said I have a beard, can I call in? And I said, of course you can. So that was the tag to that silly story.

Speaker 4: 3:11

All right, fair enough, I started laughing for you. What's all that about? But now I know. Anyway, roger, while you're there, I've been listening to your show, great show. I had a slight vitamin D deficiency because of night patrolling Never and I took your advice. But now I've been taking and being checked with a doctor and I'm okay. Would you say, to take the vitamin D tablets with meals or it makes no difference. Sorry, to take the vitamin D tablets with meals or it makes no difference.

Speaker 3: 3:37

Sorry to take the vitamin D tablets. Yeah, always take vitamin D. I take vitamin D every single day, do you? Yeah, even though we're here in Australia, we are very, very vitamin D deficient because we wear a lot of sunblock and vitamin D doesn't synthesize through sunblock Gerald Quigley used to talk about that. So I highly recommend and my personal opinion is that we should be taking at least 1,000 IU international units, which is we can buy them here at 1,000 IU every single day, because it's so important vitamin D and we don't get enough of it from our food at all. It comes in mushrooms, a bit of egg, but not enough.

Speaker 4: 4:20

And would you say, it doesn't matter whether you take them combined with food or it doesn't really matter?

Speaker 3: 4:25

You should really take vitamin D with a fatty meal or with a dietary fat, and the reason being is because it's a fat-soluble vitamin, which means that it goes into our fat cells and it gets stored there until such time as our body needs it. So taking it with the fat helps it to be actually absorbed into our fat cells. And I'll give you another interesting fact, arthur, about that too. Interesting fact, arthur, about that too. When I went to Canada last year, I took a month's worth in one go. And you can do that with vitamin D because it's stored in your fat cells. As I said, it's a fat-soluble vitamin, so it's really good that you can, if you forget to take it for a day, take double the dose the next day.

Speaker 4: 5:11

That's what I've been doing, and I had a check, as I normally do, with the doctor. I'm all clear, which is good news, that's fantastic news and I really appreciate it and I'll keep doing that. So I've been doing that you said I just wanted to be sure, so I'll keep on going. I do have them every day, so thank you very much.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Proud of you, Arthur, that's really really good, well done.

Speaker 1: 5:41

You're Now Tiffy. Now this is I don't know whether you're familiar with Tiffy's bathroom break. Tiffy, just bring us up to, while Roger's here bring us up to date, tiffy. Oh, it's working. It's working, new toilet. This is live radio.

Speaker 3: 5:48

She's got a new toilet.

Speaker 1: 5:49

We are excited.

Speaker 3: 5:50

Are we serious? Brand new toilet people oh Tiffy, We've got an international guest coming on. What are we?

Speaker 1: 5:56

doing so. This is somebody who's listening, in New York probably, and going.

Speaker 7: 5:59

I apologise.

Speaker 1: 6:00

No, it's lovely, so you've christened it, tiff.

Speaker 7: 6:04

Yeah, well, guess what also happened An L-E-A-K.

Speaker 1: 6:09

Oh no, what you went for one, or you've got one.

Speaker 7: 6:13

No, no, no, it actually leaked because the nut on the cistern wasn't tight enough. Oh, I know the feeling and it happened over a few hours, and not only that, I've got my period as well.

Speaker 1: 6:26

Oh, thanks for sharing.

Speaker 7: 6:27

I can't deal with this.

Speaker 1: 6:29

We don't need all the details. Tiff. Yeah, I apologise, so let's just talk about the, I'm just thinking why do I need a leak? No, not up to the basin, please, let's just talk about that because we're excited. Around Australia, people have been following the story of the toilet. The loo and the mould and the bathroom. The mould and the beautiful.

Speaker 7: 6:55

So it's working and you're happy and it's all paid for. Well, yes, but I've got to give Paul back the money because he helped me pay for it.

Speaker 1: 7:00

What was the total cost? What was the total cost?

Speaker 7: 7:04

$600. Oh, the whole thing including the installation and the system and the toilet was $670, something I can't remember what the whole thing was $75-something.

Speaker 1: 7:17

Okay, so nearly $700. I think we should have some sort of gathering at your house. We could do an outside broadcast and do a whole program from Tiffy's bathroom.

Speaker 7: 7:29

And guess what? I christened it at 9.45 am it's too much information Tiffy's done it.

Speaker 1: 7:35

Thanks, tiff. Very, very funny when we come back, our special guest Looking forward to this. What do we need to know about the wonderful Dr Olivia Walsh?

Speaker 3: 7:45

W-A-L-C-H. Well, dr Olivia Walsh runs a company called Arcuscope. She started it and I've been working with Olivia working on providing shift workers for her on a shift working app. But she's written a book and the book is called Sleep Groove and she's talking all about sleep, trying to change the scope of sleep, not from how long we need to get, but the timing of sleep is much more important, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1: 8:11

All right, we'll talk to the good doctor. We'll do that next. It's Australia Overnight Roger's. Here I'm Tony. It's Australia Overnight Roger's. Here I'm Tony Mack. It's Australia, overnight Morning. Lots of text, which is great. If you're sending messages, try and keep it classy 0477 693 693. Perth listeners talk back 133 882. For the rest of 133 693. Roger is here, founder of A Healthy Shift. So we talk to Roger every couple of weeks of the program about shift workers and the highs and lows of working. Really silly hours quite often. Equally importantly, thank you to JC here. John, thank you High Tone House Fire. This is Forster F-O-R-S-T-E-R Forster Court, bentley East. It's well alight. Second alarm response Nine trucks not yet under control. Not yet under control. We'll keep you posted on that as we go through the next hour or so. It is a healthy shift. Now just to share, share like a bear. What do we need to know about our very special guest coming up?

Speaker 3: 9:19

Our very special guest is just the best person. She is a doctor that is actually a mathematician that is specialising in circadian rhythms and circadian science. Now, I connected with Olivia through A Healthy Shift because we were developing a shift work app, or she was developing a shift work app. I can't claim that, and what happened was I reached out to her and spoke to her about the app to help our shift working community and ended up providing her with a number of live shift workers to actually test this app. When it first started on iPhone, it's now running and running really well. The app has evolved into something that's fantastic for shift workers. Anyway, I'll continue to communicate with Olivia and she's written this book, which I was really excited to get hold of, which is called Sleep Groove. I've got a copy of it here Sleep, Groove Sleep.

Speaker 3: 10:15

G-R-O-O-V-E.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Sleep Groove. I've got a copy of it here Sleep Groove Sleep G-R-O-O-V-E.

Speaker 3: 10:17

Sleep Groove, getting into a sleep groove. And if you think about it, we want to get into a groove, a sleep groove.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Not only that, dr Olivia has, what a one-year-old, 18-month-old so that'll be a challenge as well. Dr Olivia Walsh. Welcome to Australia. Overnight, right across our wonderful country, dr Olivia hi.

Speaker 2: 10:39

Hi, I am so glad to be here.

Speaker 1: 10:41

It's lovely to have you on the program. The great man Roger mentioned to me you have a little Kai, he's how old.

Speaker 2: 10:49

He is basically a year, yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Twelve months, and this is number one.

Speaker 2: 10:56

Number one, and so I was very scared because in my book, when I was writing it, he wasn't born yet and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to tell people all this stuff about sleep and then I'm going to have the kid and it's all going to go out the window. But actually genuinely keeping sleep regularity at the forefront of my mind really helped.

Speaker 1: 12:19

So I was like that's such a huge relief at the forefront of my mind really helped, so I was like that's such a huge relief. Well, I tell you what you're going to win a lot of hearts as we speak for the next few minutes about sleep, and particularly with children, no doubt. How are you managing that with a little tacker?

Speaker 2: 12:35

I am so willing to share all my secrets, though as a scientist I have to say this is only number one, right? So I could have another kid and that kid's sleep could be awful, and I could be like oh no, I thought I was good.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Sleeping your mums and dads, by the way, and sleeping with little ones overnight. We'll take some calls on that. 133693. How did you and I'm sure Roger's got some thoughts for you as well how did you, why did you immerse yourself into the idea of the challenges around those that work nights, shift workers in particular, and why have you immersed yourself in this particular science?

Speaker 2: 13:15

Yeah, so when I was in college, I was absolutely crazy with sleep. I would pull double all-nighters, I'd sleep any hour of the day, and I was on the rowing team, so theoretically I was supposed to be healthy. You know, I was eating pretty good, I was working out all the time. Why was my health so terrible? And that led me to start studying the math of your sleep and your circadian rhythms. Your body's internal clock that sort of tells you, hey, now's the time to be awake, now's the time to be asleep.

Speaker 2: 14:00

And the more I studied that, the more I started to think of sleeping. Kind of the same way we think about heartbeats or breathing, where rhythm is really central to whether or not it's healthy. You wouldn't hear a wildly irregular heartbeat and be like that person is fine. You'd be like that person is sick. But we don't think that way about sleep. And so I was like, oh my gosh, like we need to. We need to think about rhythm and sleep. It's really important.

Speaker 2: 14:26

And then that led me to shift work, which was kind of like what I was doing in college, but way worse because it's your whole life as opposed to four years where you're also having fun. I really think shift work is a public health crisis. I think the world needs shift work. Shift workers keep critical 24-hour operations running. Shift workers run awesome radio shows, but the cost of them providing those services is a major detriment to their health and we need to do better as a society to take care of our shift workers, and we need to do better as a society to take care of our shift workers.

Speaker 3: 15:01

Olivia, it's something that you use the analogy of the heartbeat and I've heard you use this one and I think it's fantastic. Now we need to get into a rhythm. It's always interesting that a mathematician has gone into circadian science because it's all about rhythms and understanding that. Can you just talk to us about the heartbeat and your analogy of the heartbeat, that if someone tries to catch up on sleep, it's like trying to catch up on heartbeats. Can you go through that one?

Speaker 2: 15:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. And in fact I've got like two different flavors of this one. So you're going to get two analogies, okay. So the first one is like everyone knows about eight hours a night. Right, everyone's like sleep duration, sleep duration. You got to get eight hours a night, but we don't care about when those eight hours happen.

Speaker 2: 15:51

And the analogy I've got for that is okay. It's like listening to two heartbeats one that's really consistent, like done, done, dun, and one that's really inconsistent, like da-da, da-da-da, and being like hey, they're equally healthy because they both had 60 beats in a minute. That's what we functionally do and we say, hey, yeah, you're fine, as long as you get eight hours a night, it doesn't matter if it's the same time every night or if it's all around the clock hours a night, it doesn't matter if it's the same time every night or if it's all around the clock, like. Rhythm is really important and we shouldn't just be sort of bean counting hours of sleep, like you're bean counting beats of your heart in that minute.

Speaker 2: 16:31

And then I've also got an analogy for how sleeping is, kind of like breathing, okay. So imagine like you're doing a short jog, you get out of breath, you're going to breathe more after that to sort of compensate for having lost your breath, but you're not going to be breathing heavily five years from now because you're still recovering from that jog you did today. Right, you sort of breathe faster to recover and then you're sort of leveling out to a steady state again. That's what I think about when I think about catching up on your sleep debt. Right, like you've got sort of a, a crude sleep debt that when you have a chance to sleep more, you're going to get rid of, you're going to sleep more and it's going to clear out that sleep debt.

Speaker 2: 17:14

Just like how, breathing more after a jog, kind of gets oxygen back into your blood, but it's not something where, 10 years from now, it's going to be like oh yes, remember that time I lost sleep in 2025? So, yeah, like just start thinking of sleep like all these other body rhythms, because it's a rhythm in your body and things start to become more intuitive.

Speaker 3: 17:35

I think one of the most important things that I took out of sleep groove, without any doubt, was we have a lot of people like we go out clubbing. You know, people go out clubbing and they go to bed at 2am and they think, oh, I'll just sleep until 10, then I've got my eight hours sleep. So that's good for me. Liken this to the analogy of anyone that's raising a child like a teenager and they struggle to get them up to go to school Monday, tuesday, then Wednesday, thursday, friday. They're in a rhythm, but then it's the weekend and they don't have to get up on Saturday. So they sleep in late Saturday. They sleep in late on Sunday because they're up late Friday night. They're up late Saturday and then comes the problem on Monday morning of trying to get them up late on Sunday because they're up late Friday night. They're up late Saturday and then comes the problem on Monday morning of trying to get them up and we all have this Mondayitis. Can you explain to us what's actually occurred there for Mondayitis, olivia? For teenagers you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 18:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Yeah for sure. It's basically jet lag. It's like for me if I were to fly three hours from New York to California and the weekend there and then fly back. My body is on a later time zone on Monday, and so all the fun of jet lag you're experiencing, except you're 17 and you're taking tests that will decide your future. Decide your future.

Speaker 2: 19:02

And so I think the key thing here is you don't actually have to cross time zones to get jet lagged because your body doesn't know. It's like, oh, I've crossed time zones. That's like a human construction, but what it does know is that your light exposure has changed. And so those teens, when they're staying up late on the weekend, they're getting light later and they're missing light in the morning. So that's making it for their body Seeing those signals thinks oh okay, I guess I've sort of functionally changed time zones and it shifts everything to be later. So they're waking up Monday morning while there's a lot of melatonin still in their body, which is the night hormone. It's going to make them groggy. It's going to again make it so that like if they've got important things going on, important tests, they're really going to struggle. And it's exactly like what a person crossing countries would feel if they were on a plane.

Speaker 3: 19:50

Yeah, that's fantastic, a great way of explaining it. And I think, with children, I think this is the great example for adults for us to keep this rhythm going ourselves, because we do tend to get to Friday night and on Saturday we think, oh no, I don't need to get up for work tomorrow, so I'll sleep in. And I know now, I've kept the same routine all the time and it's easy for me because I'm not doing shift work now myself. But Tony, you're on night shift and you now get into a routine for those five nights and you get into a routine for those five nights.

Speaker 1: 20:24

It is a rhythm, yeah, and you get into a routine and then you've got to come out of it for Saturday and Sunday as well. In fact, arguably, it's more difficult over the weekend when you're not having to do that. We'll come back to that in just a moment. We'll do this break when we come back. If you have a question you would like to put to Dr Olivia Walsh, author, author of the new book it's called Sleep Groove, why your body clock is so messed up and what is it you can do about it? 1-double-3-6-9-3. We'll take your calls, happy to do that More. The other side of this, roger is here. Roger Sullivan, you can catch up with Roger every couple of weeks If you have a question you would like to put to our very special guest.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Dr Olivia Walsh is in the United States of America. The book talks about. Well, it's called Sleep Groove. There's a couple of things, olivia, before Roger asks you another question With the great audience across Australia. One of the common things that people say quite more off air is older members of community that struggle with overnight sleep. A that is presumably a thing. Is there anything that you can talk about briefly that might give them an idea of why, at a certain point in life, you struggle to get the sort of sleep you may have been able to get when you were 25?.

Speaker 2: 21:41

Yeah for sure. So I would say cetidian amplitude, which is basically as you get older, your rhythms get flatter, you don't have as much of a difference between days and nights and sort of right off the bat you can see why that might make you wake up more. Your nights aren't as nighty, and so then you're more likely to get woken up by something You're not in as deep a sleep. This is maybe related, just naturally, to aging. It could also be because your eyes get less sensitive to light, like kids are super sensitive to light, but older people tend to be less sensitive. And since light is what's going to set your body's clock if you're sort of older, set your body's clock, if you're sort of older, outside getting light, but it's just not interpreted the same way it used to, then you don't have as strong a day signal saying hey, it's daytime, now time to be awake, which means in 16 hours it's going to be nighttime, time to be asleep. And I've got another analogy related to this. Are you up for like a somewhat goofy analogy for when?

Speaker 1: 22:46

people wake up, absolutely Please.

Speaker 2: 22:49

All right, all right, strapping for this analogy. Okay. So imagine your brain like a water cooler, and when you're awake it fills up and when you're sleeping it drains. And it's got like a little tap. You push to drain, like a sort of you push the button and water comes out.

Speaker 2: 23:05

If you've ever been to a barbecue and you're filling up your water bottle and it starts to get low to get more out of it, you tilt it towards you, so you tilt the water cooler towards you and that way your pour doesn't get interrupted. You get a nice long pour. So your body's clock does this too, where basically at night it's tilted towards you to help you stay asleep. You get this nice long pour out. It doesn't drop below the level of the tap and stop, and during the day it's tilted away from you, so it's harder to fall asleep and stay asleep. Now you can still sleep if you're super tired during the day.

Speaker 2: 23:41

The same way, you can still get water out of a water cooler that's super full but tilted away from you because it's so full. But what's going on with older people is they don't have as much of a tilt towards you during the night, and so it's like you're at the water cooler, you're pushing it, you're getting your bottle filled up and then the water level falls below the top and the the stream of water stops. That's you waking up in the middle of the night. So what you can do to try and get around that? Just get even more light during the day and even darker nights and do the exact same thing every single day. Um, how's that?

Speaker 3: 24:18

that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I'll tell you. The thing that we've learned at home is I know we talk about this all the time that your room's got to be pitch black to sleep in. But we at home are now turning everything completely dark. So we've got no LEDs, no light, no, nothing, no light around the windows, close the bedroom door. There is actually no light pollution in the room at all and it's pitch black.

Speaker 3: 24:47

And I applied the rule and I spoke about it today on my social media that if you hold your hand in front of your face, if you can see your hand, then it's not dark enough in your room If you can hold your hand in front of your face and see your hand. And I found that since we've done that, my sleep is so much better Really Within a week. So much better straight away and that pitch blackness. But I'm also someone who gets up at 5.30, 6 o'clock every morning and I hit the road and I go out for a walk to get that early light, to stimulate that circadian rhythm, so it knows where it's at by nine o'clock. I'm done by the end of the day, so I don't get that blue light at night, but I'm done and this is what the best lesson is in Olivia for people to get early light early that daylight outside, but then to cut that blue light and make their bedrooms pitch black at night because that light.

Speaker 1: 25:44

Well, you can do it at night, but it's about sleeping during the day for many of us.

Speaker 3: 25:48

It still needs to be pitch black. It needs to be pitch black During the day. Yes, it does. It needs to be pitch black. That's right, isn't it Olivia?

Speaker 2: 25:56

Yeah, basically our brains are set up as people to like, really get it. If you get, like, hey, more of a thing, you either get better or worse. But when it comes to light, what you need is more of a rhythm. You want the brightest light you can get during the bright periods and the darkest dark you can get during the dark periods, because anything else is going to make it. So your days aren't as dayish as they need to be and your nights aren't night dayish as they need to be, and your, your nights aren't nighty enough from a biological perspective and you're going to have more awakenings during the night. And so, like I really think we've forgotten what it's like to to live outside of sort of industrial society. But you go to a farm, you spend like one night on a farm and, yeah, you do the hand in front of your face, test and you remember, oh yeah, this is what darkness feels like. We've really lost that in modern society.

Speaker 3: 26:49

Yeah, we talk about the. Is it the Oklahoma study as well, olivia, where they talk about that? They took the night owls and also the morning larks out camping where there was no electronic devices, no light, no nothing. And these people were all healthy. But what they did was people say, oh, I'm a night owl so I can't go to sleep early, I just can't because I don't. And then you've got the morning larks that go oh, I can't sleep in, I wake up and get up. When they took them camping and they were in darkness, with no access to any light pollution, no electronic devices or anything, they all went to sleep and woke up within an hour of each other, which shows you the impact of light. Correct, correct?

Speaker 2: 27:30

No, it's true Like the sort of spread of chronotypes before they went camping was really wide. You had some people who looked like they were adjusted to going to bed at like three or four in the morning. One week camping brought them back and all those super night owls had vanished. They looked sort of they were still a little later, but they weren't extreme. And so it's not just sort of your genetics right, it's not just what your DNA says, it's what you feed your system, and the most important thing is light exposure, and most of us are feeding ourselves a sort of poor light diet. We're really not getting the darkness we need during the night and the light we need during the day.

Speaker 3: 28:16

But, in fairness, some people are very sensitive to light though, aren't they, which can make them a later chronotype.

Speaker 2: 28:22

Yeah, and this is actually a result from people who are at Monash and now at Flinders. Australia is full of amazing sleep scientists. By the way. What they did is they looked at people and saw how much light it took to suppress their melatonin production. So your body makes melatonin on its own and if you're in the light it's like, hey, I guess the sun's still out, I'm going to not make as much melatonin, so it suppresses it.

Speaker 2: 28:46

And for some people it took 400 lux, which is pretty bright, to suppress their melatonin by half. But for other people it only took 10 lux, which means you and your spouse can be in the same house, like doing the same stuff during the day, but have very different reactions to dim light. And it's like that if we didn't live in an industrial society, we wouldn't spend a lot of time getting Like there's a pretty fast transition, with sunrise and sunset, between darkness and sun, like sunlight, like really bright sun. Um, but in in modern life the sun sets and then we we stay in this yeah, low, but not that low indoor level of light for hours after the sun goes down. Our bodies didn't evolve with that and, as result, it can really exaggerate the differences between two people.

Speaker 3: 29:38

Yeah, that's right. And to talk about light inside a house, we're talking about 400 to 500 lux of light as normal lighting inside a house, as against the candle, which would be about 10 lux, to give someone an indication as to what the difference is between those two lights. So some people are not as sensitive to a candlelight, others right up the top. Thanks, olivia, really, really appreciate you coming on, olivia.

Speaker 1: 30:02

Just a quick one from me, if I may. The great breakfast team here on this radio station 3AW in Melbourne is Ross and Russ, and one of the things they often talk about is having to go to bed early to do a breakfast program, for which Ross has been doing for many, many decades. But he's learned over the years not to look at the clock. If he gets up at one or two, or in the middle of the night, if you like, for whatever reason, not to look at the clock. In other words, don't think about the time until such time as an alarm actually rings that then says it's time to get out of bed for your job.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Yeah, I like that and in particular, like you can't control whether or not you wake up, Like that's outside your control, but you can control the light exposure you get. So I've shifted from thinking, oh, did I sleep good last night? To more thinking, hey, did I get a good dark last night? Did I get good darkness? And if I do, I'm pretty happy, even if I'm up for a couple hours, which my kid. I definitely was up for a few hours during the night approximately 11 months ago.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Yeah, I'll bet you were. It's lovely to talk to you and I hope we have you as a guest on the program another time.

Speaker 2: 31:18

This was an absolute blast. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Dr Olivia Walsh. Thank you, olivia, she's just fantastic.

Speaker 3: 31:23

Oh, she's absolutely amazing and the book is good for people that have just called in. For anybody that wants to find the book. It's called Sleep Groove and it's why your body clock is so messed up and what to do about it. It's like a black-covered book and it's got like a yellow sun. It's about $30.

Speaker 3: 31:42

I know it's on Amazon. You'll definitely find it on Amazon. That's where I got mine. And if people would like to win a copy of this book, if they go to my social media, at a underscore, healthy, underscore shift on Instagram, I'm actually running a competition. I'm giving away a copy of Olivia's book at the moment. So, at a underscore, healthy, underscore shift, go along there and the competition is there. You'll see the book and you'll see the competition that's running there.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Very kindly. Brian in Blackburn says a message says the overnight program, I don't get sick. Well, that's just because of. Says the overnight program, I don't get sick. Well, that's just because I have no reason why I don't get sick. I sometimes feel a little ill, I sometimes make others feel a little ill, but so far, so good. I think I did have one night off for some reason last year.

Speaker 1: 32:30

Yeah, I remember that. I can't remember what the reason was now, but I did. Thank you for that, brian. Very kind of you to say We'll do this break. When we come back we can take your calls. If you'd like to join us, you're more than welcome. 133-693. It's Australia Overnight. If you would like to be part of it, you can jump on board anytime. When we talk about a topic the topic it still means that you can get through. 133693. If you'd like to have your say, you can send a text as well, and there are many, which is most gratifying. 0477693. G'day Tony McEnrodger. Love the topic. Would it help if you would sometimes wear a sleep mask to bed, which I've never done, maybe?

Speaker 3: 33:10

I should. Yes, maybe I should, definitely the sleep mask. And sleep masks have come a long way now too, because they've got like eye cups, so you know, your fake eyelashes, they won't actually.

Speaker 2: 33:23

They won't touch the inside. They won't touch the inside, so they're very, very comfortable for you, so I can leave them on while I'm sleeping.

Speaker 3: 33:27

You can leave them on while you're sleeping, tony, yes, you idiot, no. A sleep mask highly recommended. I have found, when I was on night shift with mine, that I would roll over to grab my phone to look at the time.

Speaker 1: 33:40

When you were a police officer.

Speaker 3: 33:42

Yeah, when I was working.

Speaker 1: 33:43

Well, that's the point that and I keep talking about the brekkie program here on 3OW for other networks, other radio stations. Forgive me for that, but you can apply it to breakfast teams right across Australia, or TV programs where people get up at three and four o'clock in the morning, where you're in the cot by eight or 8.30, you've got to get that rest because your alarm goes off at three o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 3: 34:06

Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right. And that dark restorative sleep. That's why I say you say, oh, I can't. You know I'm sleeping during the day, so it's not dark. Roll the blinds. Face mask is the cheapest option. Put a face mask on pitch black. I've rolled over and grabbed my phone and tried to look at my phone and thought, oh, it's not working.

Speaker 1: 34:29

You shouldn't look at your phone.

Speaker 3: 34:30

I want to know what time it is, whether I should get up, but my mask was on, I didn't know. But that's what Ross is.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Don't look at the phone. You don't need to look at the phone.

Speaker 3: 34:36

That's if you've got to go back to sleep.

Speaker 6: 34:37

Well, set the alarm.

Speaker 3: 34:38

Yeah, true. Well, that's a good point.

Speaker 1: 34:41

Ross is all over it. He is very much so, mary in Adelaide. Hello, you're in the studio with me, mary.

Speaker 6: 34:51

Roger.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Good morning Mary.

Speaker 6: 34:53

First of all, is don't take your phone into the bedroom. There it is no television, no phone in your bedroom.

Speaker 3: 35:00

That's just naughty.

Speaker 6: 35:02

The bedroom Life will go on, roger and they will get in contact with you later. If it's really important, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 3: 35:10

I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 6: 35:10

Your bed is for only three things. I'm a nurse. You read more. Your bed is for only three things. I'm a nurse, I do shift work. Well done, and I've been doing shift work for 30 years. Oh my goodness me, well done. I know. God bless. We're beautiful people, living angels. Yeah, thank you. That's a very nice thing to say. What I have discovered is that darkness is the most important thing in the world for shift workers.

Speaker 3: 35:46

Couldn't agree more.

Speaker 6: 35:47

Totally, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 35:49

What's your secret?

Speaker 6: 35:51

I don't have the roller downs at my place because I rent.

Speaker 3: 35:56

Yep.

Speaker 6: 35:57

But every now and then I spend some time at a friend's place and they've got roller down blinds on it. And you know I'll go to bed and think. You know, the magpies are going to start singing and I'll be awake at six.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Oh.

Speaker 6: 36:12

Knowing that I've got to go through to two o'clock or whatever the next morning and they've got roller down blinds and it's like I stand there in shock for about 15 minutes that I've actually woken up at 10 o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 3: 36:31

Yep. As to how dark it is. It's the darkness. Yes, it is. It's the darkness. Yes, it is. I used to have a roller blind on mine and it makes such a big difference. No awareness of time at all, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:44

It's very important. Mary, it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you for being on the program. I appreciate it. You can as well. You can join us anytime. 133693, 133693. The other thing and we haven't really canvassed it too much this morning, but many talk about the isolation of shift workers. Terrible. Where you jump in the cot, you're there, family might be doing other things, you might miss the run into school for whatever reason, and then that goes to one member of the family because you're in the cot by 6.30 or 7. So there's all sorts of those issues as well, isn't there?

Speaker 3: 37:20

Mental health in shift workers is at a critical time, particularly now, and I think one thing that we completely lose sight of is the isolation away from family friends being at work while our partners and that are socialising, and that missing out on those sort of things, the rotating shifts, now that circadian misalignment already causes mental health issues to us already just by it being misaligned with what is normal diurnal, which is daytime, nighttime, and I think one of the biggest problems that we have is you're going to bed, your partner's not there, you're up, your partner's in bed, you're at work, they're at a social function, they're with family, so on and so forth. It makes such a big difference and an impact and you can't catch up with just friends.

Speaker 1: 38:12

Yeah, and that is a challenge, particularly during the week. Pete, a quick comment.

Speaker 5: 38:16

Yeah, guys, good evening. I usually finish work around the 4 o'clock. I usually go to bed between quarter to 5. Hopefully I'll wake up by 11. I usually wake up around 10.30. Yep, last Friday night I started work a lot earlier. I finished work at 3 o'clock, woke up at 7 o'clock and brought her to basketball. Still had those five hours of sleep Disaster. Saturday and Sunday zombie.

Speaker 3: 38:42

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 38:43

Could not get off the couch, could not do anything. Wife was going to kill me.

Speaker 1: 38:46

Yeah, there you go, which is part of the issue, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 38:51

Peter, the big issue that you had there is see, this is what Dr Olivia was just talking about. It's not about the quantity of sleep, it's about the timing of the sleep, and your timing was out, so therefore your body was totally confused. Yeah, very confused.

Speaker 1: 39:03

Pete got to leave you there. We'll do that. We'll wrap it up. The other side of this, the music quiz. On the way. It is Australia Overnight. A lovely little note from Lee Forrest at 5AA who says what a great song. Hello Darkness, my Old Friend. Yes, that's a classic. There you go. Thank you, paul Simon. Sorry for all the text we just didn't get to. But many people saying how much they enjoyed that segment. She was wonderful, your very special guest.

Speaker 3: 39:29

Oh, fantastic, and if people are interested, I've got plenty more that I can bring on to talk about topics like that. We will do that, I promise you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Ahealthyshiftcom. Have a look at the website. Instagram At A underscore healthy underscore shift and that's where the opportunity to win Copy of that book.

Speaker 3: 39:47

A copy of the Sleuth Group. Thank you, see you next fortnight.

Speaker 1: 39:51

A couple of weeks time you.