Speaker 1: 1:11

instituting your employees to get mental health care from day one. Find somebody, a mental health professional that they trust, that they click with, that will be there, as we say when the poo hits the fan. We want them to be able to go to that therapist and already be established with them, rather than try to find somebody that's going to help them after a PTSI.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Shift work can be brutal, but it doesn't have to be. Welcome to a healthy shift. My name is Roger Sutherland, certified nutritionist, veteran law enforcement officer and 24-7 shift worker for almost four decades. Through this podcast, I aim to educate shift workers using evidence-based methods to not only survive the rigors of shift work but thrive. My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and well-being so they have more energy to do the things they love. Enjoy today's show being so. They have more energy to do the things they love. Enjoy today's show and welcome to another episode of a Healthy Shift podcast. I am your host, roger Sutherland, and today we have another guest episode.

Speaker 2: 2:31

I want to bring awareness to something that actually occurs in the USA that I believe should be made more aware here in Australia. In the USA, in the second week of April, they have a designated week for National Public Telecommunicator Week. This is acknowledging their 911 call takers and dispatchers. I think this is really really important recognition for these people, because they do play a very, very important role. Now we don't have that here in Australia and we need to make this happen, and I think it's really important to recognise the people behind the scenes that are taking your calls and dispatching the jobs to the police on the road.

Speaker 2: 3:13

In recognition of National Public Telecommunicator Week here in Australia, I'm releasing this podcast today with a special guest by the name of Deborah Green. Now, deborah Green was a 911 call taker and dispatcher for quite a significant period of time and she has been diagnosed with depression, anxiety and also PTSD as a result of the exposures that she got in her job. But Deb isn't someone who's going to lie down and she is out there and she's battling for better conditions for 911 dispatchers and call takers in those centers. So today I've got her on the podcast where we go over and we cover what there is that happened, why she ended up with PTSD Without going into major details of the jobs I didn't want to dig into that but we talk about what could be done to support 911 dispatchers, what advice she would give to a 911 dispatcher if they were starting today, and basically just to bring recognition to our National Public Telecommunicator Week. So, without any further ado, I want to welcome Deborah Green. How are you, deborah?

Speaker 1: 4:30

I'm wonderful Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 4:32

I'm so thrilled to actually have a 911 dispatcher on the show, or a formal 911 dispatcher. We're going to get into this. I've invited you to come onto the show today because in the US this week you are actually celebrating National Public Telecommunicator Week, and we will get into talking about what that is, because I think it's something that's very, very important to you there in the US, because it's actually a designated day by the government and it's not something that's acknowledged or even recognized here in Australia at all, so I'd really love to bring awareness to it. Hence the reason why we're doing this Now. Could you just share a bit about your background and how you ended up becoming a 911 dispatcher all those years ago?

Speaker 1: 5:19

Oh my gosh. Well, I come from a family that is service oriented so a lot of military and police officers, government workers, things like that and I had gone into the California National Guard, which is like the reserve form of the US Army that is specific to the States. I went in as a communication specialist and then became a military police officer at that time, so I was in the Guard from 1986 to 1992.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Wonderful. So you were one of them. You were an MP, I was I was oh boy, one of them.

Speaker 1: 6:00

My only deployment was to the LA riots in 1992. I don't know if Australia is familiar with that.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Yes.

Speaker 1: 6:07

We call it the Rodney King riots or the LA riots. So I did that and as a National Guard member you only go serve one weekend a month and then a two week per year, a two week block of time per year. You still have a regular job while you're doing that. I applied for to be a deputy sheriff and police officer with several agencies, and then somebody mentioned why don't you try dispatching? And I said okay, why not? So I applied and got hired.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Okay. So when it comes to dispatching in the US, if you could just paint a picture for us it's very different to here, I think, because you are actually employed by the police department there, aren't you, as part of their employ.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Yeah, we have different structures here, but yeah, basically we're employed by the department.

Speaker 2: 7:00

What year was that? What department did you actually work for? First of all, I should have asked you whereabouts you're actually located in the US, for our listeners.

Speaker 1: 7:08

I'm in Northern California, just outside Sacramento, so I'm about two hours from San Francisco, two hours from South Lake Tahoe. A lot of people know those two major landmarks.

Speaker 2: 7:20

You would be up near the Napa Valley then, wouldn't you? We'll be on the Napa Valley.

Speaker 1: 7:24

I'm about an hour, hour and a half away from there. Yes, Wonderful.

Speaker 2: 7:28

And we all know what comes out of the Napa Valley, don't we? And it's red, and it's liquid, and it's yummy.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Well, I wouldn't say it's the best wine in the world, because down in Australia they got some pretty good ones, that's so true, but anyway, there we are.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Okay, now can you tell me what does a typical shift look like for a 911 dispatcher? Because, to be clear to people, 911, which we all know here in Australia anyway, is the emergency call number 911, whereas here it's triple zero. You're a 911 dispatcher. What does a typical shift look like? How long do you work? What sort of rotations Can you talk to us about that?

Speaker 1: 8:03

And it depends on which department you're at, but the one that I was with when I retired we had 12-hour shifts and we worked three 12-hour shifts and then a four-hour shift to make up 40 hours a week, and I worked the graveyard, or what we call graveyard. I guess you guys would call it overnights or night shift or something like that.

Speaker 1: 8:25

So yeah, we kind of structured that way and we had four teams, so we had some that worked Sunday, monday, tuesdays and others that worked Thursday, friday, saturdays, and then we had Wednesdays was our day where we had four hours and everybody worked on that day.

Speaker 2: 8:41

Yeah, Okay, so you got to cross over with the crew. So, and in your role as a 911 dispatcher now it's very different in the structure in the US compared to what it is here. So you actually take the calls and dispatch, don't you?

Speaker 1: 8:56

Yes, and, like I said, it depends on whatever agency you're with. But in a nutshell, you have what we call call takers and they take the phone calls, they enter it into a computer-aided dispatch system or CAD, and then the radio dispatcher would get that information and dispatch the actual units to the calls.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Okay, fantastic. Now what are some of the most challenging aspects of that job? We've seen it on TV and it's all very glamorous and it's fun and everything else, but it can be a boring mundane. It's a very sedentary job, isn't it? So what are some of the biggest challenges that you would have that people don't realize from the outside?

Speaker 1: 9:39

So when you work overnights in a small department in a small rural area, trying to stay awake at night is a big problem and a lot of departments don't let you watch television or don't let you read a book, or I knit, so I was knitting just to keep myself awake and then you know you get a call in and you just throw it aside and do what you need to do. But I think trying to stay awake on the overnights is a big part. Boredom, you know, when there's nothing going on, is a big part. And also trying to keep up during those busy times, you know, because there are times where it does get busy and in those big departments the phone is constantly ringing. So trying to give yourself some peace in between phone calls is a difficult challenge too.

Speaker 2: 10:31

Yeah, very much so, Because it can go from nought to a hundred very quickly can't it. Yes, to say the least, did you? As a police dispatcher, did you find it challenging, frustrating, that you couldn't support the units actually out on the road? Like you know, you'd lose touch. You just would give them the job to go to dispatch the event to them, but then you would find that you sort of lost a bit of touch and you felt so helpless.

Speaker 1: 10:59

Oh gosh, yeah. And you know when, being on the street at the beginning of my career and then coming inside and just answering phones, those first few years was very difficult, because I wanted to be out there, I wanted to help, I wanted to do something hands-on, and I started out at a bigger department, and you kind of you don't get to know your officers, whereas the end of my career I worked for a smaller department. So we got to know them better because we were all in the same building and they would come and visit, and things like that them better because we were all in the same building and they would come and visit and things like that. But yeah, it was hard to make those connections though, especially when you're busy.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Okay, I'll ask you this question on that Is it better to know them or is it better to not know them? Given your role and theirs, would you rather have not had that shared coffee and shared donut or shared whatever with them and just dealt with them as police on the road? Or did you find it was better to be able to put a face to the voice and know who you were talking to, and vice versa?

Speaker 1: 12:06

I think knowing them and knowing their little idiosyncrasies and stuff on the road and knowing their voice and seeing their face, I think that was better for me than not knowing who they were. Okay, that's a really good one, because you kind of lose that human touch, not knowing people.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Yep, it's a team, isn't it? And you want to be all pulling together in the team, and I think that's something that's really important for people to remember as well. That, to anybody that hasn't worked in a communication centre, they are a very, very, very important part of the team and people totally underestimate the value of a police call taker and a police radio dispatcher, and paramedics as well, and also for our biaries, but I think they are part of the team because they're playing such a very, very important and very integral role, totally underestimated and, I think as well and we will get to this in our conversation it's a difficult role. It's difficult hearing things unfolding and feeling so helpless to it. So can you tell us, then, how does the nature of the job that you do actually contribute to the stress and trauma exposure? Because I know I've heard from the police side well, they're dispatchers, they're at the other end of the radio, how do they get involved? They're not really involved. Nothing could be further from the truth could it?

Speaker 1: 13:29

Oh my gosh. So we're considered the first first responders. We're literally on scene as soon as we pick up that phone and during my career I have listened to people being stabbed, people being shot, moms who have discovered their child has died and you can't hug them. The feeling of helplessness can be at times overwhelming. And then also you're going from these priority calls. So you're picking up the phone. You've done your shooting call, you've done everything you could. The police are on scene, you hang up and you go to the next call. There's no time to rest in between the calls.

Speaker 2: 14:10

Agreed and there's no closure. In many circumstances there's no closure on the event for you as well, and this is something that I was very big on finding out for our dispatchers because I was the police sergeant in the room giving them closure, because so many times dispatchers would handle all the initial, as you said, they take the call, dispatch the job, the job goes out, the event unfolds, but then you move on to the next one and you don't get the closure. And I think I want to bring this point really really to the fore and I think this is something that's got to be really well noted for police radio dispatchers While the police can get exposed to a trauma in a shift, they might in a shift or a significant trauma in a week. I think what we underestimate is call takers and police dispatchers can be exposed to one after the other, not even day after day, hour after hour after hour, and it all goes in doesn't it, Deb?

Speaker 1: 16:18

And I started at a time where you just shove it down, you don't deal with it, it just okay. Next call, shove that down and keep moving.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Yeah, let's just shelve that just for a minute, because I want to get to that as well, because I think this is really really important. So the nature of the job does contribute horrendously on the stress and trauma exposure, contribute horrendously on the stress and trauma exposure, but I personally feel the other way it contributes as well is because of this circadian misalignment it actually causes us more stress and trauma as well because we're not designed to be sitting there awake at night, exposed to light, dealing with stresses and things like that in the middle of the night. It's really really impactful on our human biology in a very, very big way, and could you just touch on the impacts that it's had on you physically as well, because you were on a permanent night shift or graveyard?

Speaker 1: 17:16

I worked over 20 years on graveyards 20 years as a graveyard and that was by choice, because the way my circadian rhythm was. I was more of a, and you could probably understand that an afternoon evening kind of person.

Speaker 2: 17:31

A night owl Yep.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Yeah, so that worked best for me was my shift was 7 pm to 7 am. Because of that, I developed high blood pressure hypertension. I had a defect on my aortic valve that I've had open heart surgery for back in 2015. Because of that, I had problems healing and developed diabetes.

Speaker 2: 17:55

Yep Common for shift workers.

Speaker 1: 17:57

I've developed depression, anxiety, and anxiety takes its own special little toll on your body.

Speaker 2: 18:06

I'm right there with you, deb. People don't realize how tiring anxiety is on your system, how tiring it is. It's one thing to say, oh, I'm really anxious, but you don't realize what it's actually like to be anxious. And not only the emotional toll, but the physical toll that anxiety takes on you as well is enormous. Now you have been diagnosed with PTSD, and we're going to talk about this now. So when did you first start noticing symptoms of PTSD yourself, and how was it actually manifesting in your everyday life? I know from my own experience. It takes a long time, and it isn't until you look back on reflection that you realized it was so evident such a long time ago.

Speaker 1: 18:49

Talk to us about that. I actually developed PTSD from my open heart surgery in 2015 because it is such a trauma on your body. Literally Up till that point, I didn't realize the amount of depression and anxiety that I had had until after the surgery. And then it manifested itself by making everything 10 times worse, and then you're also dealing with a form of grief. So PTSD can be similar symptoms to grief. So you have like anger and frustration and all of that stuff that goes along with it. And how it manifests with me was I had a lot of anger issues, extreme anger issue.

Speaker 2: 19:34

I call it a very short week. It'll light and bang straight away. There's no slow burn, is there no?

Speaker 1: 19:40

not at all. So I started my mental health journey there and then it kind of continued on until I had my officer-involved shooting in 2019, which I also was diagnosed with PTSD, from where I actually listened to the gunshots that killed my deputy out in the field.

Speaker 2: 20:00

Now that's awful and I think to anybody listening, we can't begin to imagine the impact that that has, and I'm not going to dwell on that with you. Obviously, you've dealt with this and spoken about it, but it will never go away. For you it's an injury. I liken PTSI. I call it PTSI because it's an injury, because we can recover. We don't. Actually, if you were to twist your ankle or break your ankle, you may never walk the same again, but you will walk again and PTSD is exactly the same. Do you agree? It's an injury?

Speaker 1: 20:33

as well.

Speaker 2: 20:34

Oh, absolutely, it's an injury that you can absolutely recover from, because I know you yourself personally actually harnessing what you've learned out of your PTSI to actually educate other people that hey, here I am. You can recover from this. It's a dark road, but there is a very bright light at the end of it isn't there?

Speaker 1: 20:52

Yes, and there's so many resources out there to help with that healing journey.

Speaker 2: 20:57

There is now, there wasn't before. No not at all. Unfortunately, you have to go looking for them, which is a bit sad, but we'll talk about that as well. So what sort of behaviors. You said you were angry, but in what way would it come out? How do we educate people to look for those things? Is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 21:15

Snapping at someone and you go that's not me. There comes a time where you go go, that's not me. What is going? You know. There comes a time where you go. What is going on? And why am I acting this way? You know, if you're snapping at someone or just having a manager come at you, that you didn't notice the micromanaging or the thing before, and then you have that incident and then you notice it more and it just gets on your nerves. You have like a very short fuse and it's like why are you doing this to me? And you just feel overwhelmed and I would cry to and from work a lot.

Speaker 2: 21:52

It takes a lot of courage to get out of the car and walk into work as well.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Yes, I don't know if anybody remembers there was a movie about air traffic controllers. Remembers there was a movie about air traffic controllers years and years ago? And if somebody took time off because they had something happen to them while they were working, and they'd all sit in the window and watch that person and make bets to see if they would come back to work.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Oh, my God, okay, I haven't seen that.

Speaker 1: 22:18

And that's what I don't remember which somebody can throw that in there. But yeah, that's what I don't remember which somebody can throw that in there. But yeah, that's how I felt I'd sit in the car and go. Do I really want to do this again?

Speaker 2: 22:27

Why would I expose myself to this again? You know what I mean. I'm injured. It's like and I'll say this because it was an analogy that a friend of mine actually used If you touch the fire and it burns you, why would you put your hand out to touch the fire?

Speaker 1: 22:41

again, over and over.

Speaker 2: 22:50

And that's what we do over and over again, don't we? Because we have no control over what is actually going to occur to us at work. So if we've touched the fire, why would we literally go and touch the fire again? Because we're going to get burnt again, and this is what actually happens to a lot of people. Let's just move on from that at this point. Were you aware of the mental health risks when you first started as a 911 dispatcher, or was it something that became apparent to you over the journey?

Speaker 1: 23:15

I wasn't aware of that and it was not something that people talked about in 1992. You didn't talk about mental health stuff. So I don't think it was until oh my gosh, maybe 2000, where we had somebody that had to leave because of mental health issues. But even then it wasn't. How can we prevent this? It was just suck it up, or you're going to end up like this person.

Speaker 1: 23:45

Yes so it was about 2015 when it finally started becoming normal to talk about it and not really becoming normal, but addressing it, maybe in the workplace in 2015. But there was no long-term treatments or organizations to help you get better, or even the psychiatry and psychology and therapy. Nobody was addressing this type of injuries, mental health issues that first responders were getting.

Speaker 2: 24:20

Exposure the exposures. Yep, if you knew what you were going to be exposed to, do you think you would have taken on the role.

Speaker 1: 24:27

I think so yeah, I really do. I like the job. The job was fabulous.

Speaker 2: 24:32

You still think you would have done it?

Speaker 1: 24:34

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:34

Oh, yeah, okay, good, excellent, so what kind of support, if any, was available to you when you started to experience PTSD symptoms, like when you started to think what is going on here, like this, is not me, one of?

Speaker 1: 24:48

my supervisors who, let's say, was less than friendly towards me or helpful towards me or anything like that just handed me a pamphlet for EAP, which is Employee Assistance Programs, and then I had some fabulous co-workers that did an intervention and said you need to go do this. So I went to the EAP and that's when I realized, after my first visit, that I was going to need more help. So what I did was my private health insurance also provides mental health care, so I went through them instead of going through the employee assistance program.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Okay, that's interesting because it's well known here that the American health system is on its knees. It's crippled and it's not good. You chose because it's very different. Here it's a workplace injury that you've experienced, right. So and I don't care what anyone says, because if you weren't in that role doing what you were doing, you would never have been injured Never, right. So this is what actually happened. So it's a workplace injury. So therefore the insurer's got to look after you in relation to that. Now that tells me, with your EAP, you didn't have the faith, or what was it that steered you away from the EAP, like it identified for you that there was a problem, but what steered you away from EAP and forced you to go privately?

Speaker 1: 26:15

I don't think that at the time, the therapist that I was seeing was not culturally competent for law enforcement, first responders or military and didn't understand what I was going through. And this was back in 2015 when I started there. By the time, 2019 rolled around for my other injury, things were better.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Culturally competent is so important when you're looking for a counsellor as well. I think this is a key word, and I do follow people like Dr Janet Cussis and also Brooke Bartlett, who are both they've done a fantastic podcast together talking about the importance of someone being culturally competent in that area, because then you're not having to explain, they get it, they understand, and I think that's something that's really really important. So, in the benefit of hindsight, going back to when you started right Now I know it's a long time ago and it's a different era too. All right, we're not going to go back into how many years, but we'll just go back into a while ago. Do your dispatchers receive any mental training or any resilience building techniques as part of your preparation for the role?

Speaker 1: 27:28

Absolutely not.

Speaker 2: 27:29

Do they still yet today?

Speaker 1: 27:31

I believe they do now.

Speaker 2: 27:33

They do now Okay.

Speaker 1: 27:35

My department. I was very vocal when I left. That was one thing that they needed to do.

Speaker 2: 27:39

Yeah, Well, put it this way, the insurer needs to make sure that there are things in place to prevent further injury. Right, so it's important. It's one thing to go off with an injury, but you've got to come up with a strategy to solve the problem. So I think having mental health training or some kind of resilience building in place is so important. And it can be simple strategies as well, can't it, deb? Like it doesn't have to be anything major, just simple strategies to help you to cope.

Speaker 1: 28:08

Well, yeah, we added in a wellness program, so we were allowed one hour during our shift to go and work out in the gym that the department had, which was nice, and they encouraged people to get up out of their chairs on their breaks to go outside to walk. Go outside, walk, do something, because sitting there and doing nothing it takes a toll on your body too, you know, when you're not going out and getting rid of that adrenaline that's built up over the shift and all that cortisol that you're getting from working.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Well, we're not only getting a cortisol elevation from the fact that we are sedentary, we're getting it from the stresses of the actual job as well. Getting up and going for a walk makes such a difference. Just getting up and going outside and having somewhere safe that you can go for a walk around does make a massive difference. And for those dispatchers who are on day shift and running the day shift, even more important to get outside into the daylight, because in Northern California I'm sure it's dark until you get to work. If you're on day shift it'd be dark until you get to work and then it would be dark by the time you leave work at that time of the year and you could not see any natural daylight. If you walked into work, got out of bed, drove your car, got to work, stayed at work, drove your car home and went to bed zero daylight, oh absolutely, and especially on graveyards.

Speaker 1: 29:40

When you work graveyard shift because you're out all night long, you don't get that natural vitamin D going on.

Speaker 2: 29:46

No, so there's another impact, so there's plenty of impacts of it. So I think having a wellness program and encouraging people to get up and go for a walk or go and use the gym for an hour are proven, evidence-based strategies to help to combat stress. Get the blood flowing, get you moving, getting you feeling better May very well have avoided the type 2 diabetes and things like that as well, you know, make a big difference in hindsight, as we look at things in hindsight. So you've spoken about your wellness program, but what role do peer support groups or professional counselling play in your recovery? I know me personally. When I was injured and I went away from work, the last people I wanted to hear from was work. That was the last, continually stimulated in my mind all the time. I didn't want to, I couldn't, and they kept intruding in my life all the time, which continually reminded me and I didn't want to do that. Did you find that, or did you find you wanted to lean on your colleagues?

Speaker 1: 30:46

I leaned on my colleagues a little bit because I didn't have very many friends outside the law enforcement community.

Speaker 2: 30:54

That happens too, doesn't it yeah?

Speaker 1: 30:56

you become very isolated. But what I did was, in 2019, I had a friend in another department who was a peer support with that department, so I relied on her a lot just because she wasn't in my department. Reaching out like that, I think, would help too, you know, if there was like a big peer support, like a district or an area that encompassed many different departments or an area that encompassed many different departments. I think that would be better than talking to someone that may spread a rumor around your department.

Speaker 2: 31:30

I love that. Now you've raised a really, really important point here. I do love what you actually said. That which is why I jumped straight in there. We don't want to talk to people and give our innermost thoughts to the people who we actually work with, do we? And that's why if we had a peer support that was well, culturally competent, supportive, but outside of our department, that we could talk to, that understood the role completely, and you had to balance it and to help you, it would make such a difference, because there is a stigma, and still there is a stigma, and still there is a stigma around talking to people within your own organization and group isn't it?

Speaker 1: 32:09

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Especially when you've got anxiety, especially when you've got anxiety.

Speaker 1: 32:13

Oh gosh, yes.

Speaker 2: 32:15

It only enhances it, doesn't it? Yes, it does, yeah, in a very, very big way. What do you think Now? Your boss just died and I've just put you in charge of your 911 dispatch center, right, so what do you think? What would you do? What would you put in place to change the industry to better support the 911 dispatchers in your organization?

Speaker 1: 32:37

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 32:38

You're in charge now.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Deb.

Speaker 2: 32:40

I'm not going to give you a bucket of money, because you don't generally need a bucket of money. What you do need is certain things. What would you put?

Speaker 1: 32:46

in place. So here in the States we have and especially California we have a little bit different attitude towards people working shift work. So we had a quiet room in our dispatch center so that people could go in there and just chill, love it Extremely important being able to get there and just chill, love it Extremely important being able to get up and get out of the room. So a lot of agencies here in the States they'll have one or two people working dispatch for a shift.

Speaker 1: 33:16

Having one person doesn't allow to get up and move and go to the bathroom and things like that. You know that type of culture needs to change to have be able to get up and move and go to the bathroom and things like that. You know that type of culture needs to change to have be able to get up and move around. Also, instituting your employees to get mental health care from day one Encourage them to find somebody, a mental health professional that they trust, that they click with, that will be there. As we say, when the poo hits the fan. We want them to be able to go to that therapist and already be established with them, rather than try to find somebody that's going to help them after a PTSI.

Speaker 2: 33:59

I hope you're enjoying the show. If you are, please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished. This helps the show's reach enormously. And have you got my free e-book the Best Way to Eat on Night Shift? Well, this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast, why we should fast and how to best go about it. I've even included a few recipes to help you. I've put a link to the ebook in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 34:25

And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next? Well, I've got you. If you would like to work with me, I can coach you to thrive, not just survive, while undertaking the rigors of 24-7 shift work. I also conduct in-house the rigors of 24-7 shift work. I also conduct in-house live health and well-being seminars, where I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence-based information to help your well-being team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace. I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned. You can find me at ahealthyshiftcom or on Instagram at a underscore healthy, underscore shift.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Now let's get back to the show. I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is we wait for the injury because we know it's coming, don't get me wrong, but we all know it's coming. It's going to come to every first responder at some stage that they're going to get an injury. If you have an established relationship with therapists whether it's a psychotherapist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, no matter what it is if you've got an established relationship, they will see the changes and they will know to monitor those changes. Put it this way, deb we go and get our car serviced every 12 months, don't we? We get the oil changed, the air filter changed and they service the engine. We need the same as humans we do. We need someone to monitor us.

Speaker 2: 35:55

If someone put me in charge, I would force people off the floor on a break. Well, when you get a break, I know the dispatchers here in Victoria they work an hour and a half and then they have a half-hour break. They work an hour and a half, then they have a half-hour break and an hour and a half half-hour all the way through their 12-hour shift. I would have a policy in place and enforced that in that half-hour break you must leave the floor. You can't just go and sit there and sit down and plonk and go and have a chat with one of your friends or something like that.

Speaker 2: 36:23

You need to leave the floor so that you're getting away from the stimuli of what's actually going on on the floor, and then it would encourage you to go out for a walk or go to get moving, or go to the gym and walk on the treadmill for 10 or 15 minutes or, as you said, go to the bathroom without having to rush, make your food, prepare your food, do that and eat. I think it would make a big difference. But work-life balance is also something that's incredibly important as well. We're on pretty much the same page with exactly what you're saying, because, yeah, you get it as to what needs to occur, are there any specific policies or resources? Like you're an ambassador for this, what specific policies or resources that could make a significant difference in preventing PTSD amongst dispatchers?

Speaker 1: 37:09

Classes on coping skills. I took a lot of classes through my health insurance. I took depression classes, anxiety classes, work stress classes, mindfulness, wonderful. And just those helped me cope. I was able to use those skills to deal with the callers yes and help take callers out of panic attacks and get them calmed down and and get information. So it was a kind of a win-win when you really think about it.

Speaker 2: 37:43

I agree in a very big way and I think having the mindful practices in place that you can bring those skills up under muscle memory when the pressure's on would absolutely help you instead of it flooring you at the time, I think is something that's really, really important. I've got a really critical question here, a really critical one how important is leadership and management support in addressing mental health concerns in emergency dispatch?

Speaker 1: 38:11

centers. Oh my gosh, it's so important. Administrators need to listen to their line staff.

Speaker 2: 38:18

Totally.

Speaker 1: 38:19

They need to bring policies and procedures down that make sense, not just fill in somebody's agenda or oh, this is a new shiny thing that's happening. Let's implement that. You know, I mean, there's so much that could be done by just listening to the person that is working that front line.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Why is it? And I laugh. I laugh because why is it? Administrators make decisions without communicating with the people that are doing the job?

Speaker 1: 38:54

Right, and we're paid communicators and nobody communicates.

Speaker 2: 38:58

Well, I can tell you, Deb, and it's funny, you work in a communication center and I worked in a communication centre and the last thing that any of them do is communicate. Exactly, it's the most bizarre thing. They expect communication from the communication centre to the road and from the road back to the communication centre, but the leadership and management don't communicate at all. With the staff they don't, and when they're putting policies and procedures in place, they're not consulting the people that are actually doing the job to get their input at all.

Speaker 2: 39:29

Exactly At all, or the people that are making the decisions left the floor two years ago and it's different. It's not the same as it was In two years. Things change.

Speaker 1: 39:39

And it always changes whoever's in charge. So, like here in this, I don't know if it's like you guys out down there, but we get a new sheriff every four years because they're elected. So you could have a sheriff every four years. You could have somebody for 20 years. So every time that there's that change, there's new policies, there's new procedures, there's, you know, new uniforms. There's all this new stuff that you have to deal with along with doing your job, which puts more stress on it, you know. So it's just they need to listen to us.

Speaker 2: 40:21

Yeah, no, I agree, and it's the same in the police as well. Yeah, no, I agree, and it's the same in the police as well. People who are so far removed from the front line are making decisions for the front line. It's not the same as it was when you were on the front line 2025 years ago. It's totally different now. How about you come out for a ride and have a look, get out of your castle and come and have a look, and the same with the management in your organization? What about if you come off at behind your desk there and come and sit down here and plug in for a while and just see what it's like for a few shifts in a row Not just sit there for an hour and have a listen, sit down and run the show for a couple of shifts and get a bit of a handle on what it's like and feedback to the administrators on that, because that's what needs to occur.

Speaker 1: 41:03

We could go on for hours on that we actually had a manager that was not a dispatcher, had never worked as a dispatcher.

Speaker 2: 41:12

Yep and they're making decisions Worst manager we ever had. But what does that tell you, though? It's so true With this, and we're going to go back to the mental health thing, do you think there's a stigma around dispatchers seeking mental health help still today? Absolutely okay, so how can we break that stigma getting?

Speaker 1: 41:28

better because we're having these conversations and we're making it well known that dispatchers are having these issues, yep, but we need to keep talking about it and there's still that stigma. With the patrol officers, oh, totally. With military members, with firefighters, with nurses, with doctors. So we just need to keep having these conversations and making it more accessible for people. Every first responder to get mental health care.

Speaker 2: 42:04

As we talk about the football, we need to talk about mental health and just show people my personal opinion. We talk about mental health all the time and it is a taboo subject in policing and things like that. I know that for a fact. It still is. They all stand there and go oh no, we've got a policy and we work around this and we work around that and it works really well, but it's not the truth. You know as works really well, but it's not the truth. You know as well as I do it's not the truth.

Speaker 2: 42:30

They stand there behind the podium saying that they talk about it, but as soon as someone raises something, I think one of the most disappointing things for me is a diagnosis of PTSD is signing your death warrant in the job, end of story. And it should not be, because it's an injury, that's where it needs to be changed. But due to ignorance of management, management thinks oh, ptsd, that's it, he's done Bye. And then they just wipe you out, which is why people are left and why there's such a high incidence of suicide as well, because of how people are treated so poorly.

Speaker 1: 42:59

I believe it was two years ago we had more suicides by first responders than we did line of duty deaths.

Speaker 2: 43:08

Terrible by their own hand, right by their own hand. That is really, really sad, and I think having these conversations is normalizing. I don't personally believe that we as first responders and you as a peer in a dispatch role I don't think you're taught what to actually look for. Now you know, because you can look back on your own journey in reflection. I know also even distractions like getting yourself involved in online shopping and adding to cart and getting stuff, and pornography or gambling or sex or drugs or alcohol addiction these are all signs that you are not coping in a very good way at all.

Speaker 2: 43:54

People think, oh no, I've got this addiction to online shopping. You're depressed, sweetheart. That's the problem, because you're looking for a dopamine hit all the time. That's what it is. You're chasing a dopamine hit. Gambling same thing. Do you know what I mean? Pornography same thing. You realize this. But it isn't until people understand the hypervigilance and also the signs and symptoms of what they're actually doing around this that they start to realize my God, that is me. That is me. I do this. I've had to look back at my own behaviors and I thought that was me in a big way, but now I'm very aware of it. Are you okay? Yeah, that's fine. We can ask people are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine, okay. Observations of watching their behaviors and how their demeanors have changed is where we learn, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 44:40

Absolutely. Luckily, I had co-workers that recognized my symptoms and were able to confront me with that.

Speaker 2: 44:51

They saw Deborah Green had changed. That is such a good friend, but you've got to be in a position to listen to that too, because when you're like that, you don't want to hear it.

Speaker 1: 44:59

Do you? No, you don't. But you need to, you don't want to hear that you might be broken, that your career might be over.

Speaker 2: 45:07

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to hear it, but you know what? Why push on while you are doing more and more damage.

Speaker 1: 45:13

Exactly, and that's where the point I came to when I had to make that decision to retire.

Speaker 2: 45:19

Yeah, that's right. How many more times are you going to touch the fire? What do you wish the general public understood about the role of 911 dispatchers? Or even, not only the general public, but the officers on the road? What do you wish they understood about 911 dispatchers?

Speaker 1: 45:34

We're not just people that answer the phone.

Speaker 2: 45:37

Yes.

Speaker 1: 45:37

We're actually trained to get information.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Quickly and efficiently.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Get that information to who it needs to go to. In a timely matter, we don't ask questions just to ask questions.

Speaker 2: 45:53

No, no, that's a big thing.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Why are you asking so many questions? You know it's like well, because that's my job.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Yep, and they feel like you're holding them up because you're asking questions, but they don't realize how CAD works and the job's already gone through Right and that there's somebody on the way getting this information as he or she is coming to your location, and that we are trained professionals.

Speaker 1: 46:15

We go to school, we go and get trained for this.

Speaker 2: 46:19

I wish in our department, because we have a private company that actually handles all of our call taking and dispatch and the police supervise that operation. With a few supervisors in the room, which is what my role was. We were what we call a police communications liaison officer and we were the go-between between the company and the officers on the road when officers would ring and they'd criticise the information that was given to them, and then you'd listen back to the call, you would go over and give the call taker a pat on the back for actually being able to interpret the information that they got, because people don't realize how hard it is to extract the specific information from people that they need to hear, oh my gosh yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:02

Do they? Oh, everyone thinks that it's just a person on the end of the phone standing there quietly waiting for you to ask a question, and they give an answer that's efficient and it's never that, is it? No?

Speaker 1: 47:16

It's never that. Nope, try to get somebody that's actively having a fight with their husband and you're trying to get information, or somebody that's hurt and screaming and shut up and listen to me shut up and listen to me.

Speaker 2: 47:30

How many times have you said that? Shut up and listen to me?

Speaker 2: 47:33

yeah yeah yeah, stop, pay attention to me. I can't come if I don't know what's going on. Yeah, blah, blah, blah, but love it. And that's what I wish the public understood as well. I just wish the public understood how difficult the role of the call taker and dispatcher actually is. It is incredibly difficult. Incredibly difficult because I've had 12 years of firsthand experience of seeing just how difficult the role is and I think one of the most important cogs in policing today is the call taker, one of the most important, because they have to decipher well, they have to cut the chaff from the shit. You know what I mean. They've got to really get the good information out of it. Let's not go on, because we could literally go on about that one, we could be here all night.

Speaker 2: 48:21

How can the public and the policymakers better advocate for the mental wellbeing of emergency dispatchers? What would you like to see your local I don't want to say sheriff yeah, your local sheriff. What would you like to see them do?

Speaker 1: 48:32

Hire therapists culturally competent, trauma-informed therapists to the staff and have them available 24-7.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Yeah, I agree, someone you can just go and have a chat with and not just chaplains.

Speaker 1: 48:46

Chaplains are nice, but that's it's.

Speaker 2: 48:49

Touchy-feely, isn't it? It's not the same.

Speaker 2: 48:52

No, no, it's not the same. It's touchy-feely and it's nice to know that there's someone there that you can talk to. But no, you're right it. You need someone who actually understands trauma and the impact that it's having on your brain and how to navigate through that. I think that's something that's really, really important. I think call takers and dispatchers are the forgotten part of the police. People will think, oh, you're just on the side of the dispatchers. Yeah, you're right, I am. My partner is a dispatcher and a call taker and I know how difficult the job is. It is incredibly difficult. I would love to see at times then put in the front line like have the sheriff come out and say what about if we have a day? And why don't we call it National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week?

Speaker 1: 49:35

Wait a minute, you do have that in the US we do have that?

Speaker 2: 49:39

Okay, let's talk about that. That was a great segue, wasn't it it?

Speaker 1: 49:42

is that? Okay, let's talk about that.

Speaker 2: 49:43

That was a great segue wasn't it, it is, that was fabulous. Yeah, yeah, in the US. Talk to me about what National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week is.

Speaker 1: 49:50

It's basically bringing attention to dispatchers that we exist, that we are an important part of the law enforcement community, that we are an important part for public safety, and you may not see us, but we're there.

Speaker 2: 50:08

Now this is actually a government designated week and there's all events that are on around this week to bring awareness to the public safety telecommunicators, which are the 911 dispatchers, the call takers all of that it's to put you in the forefront. Now we don't recognize this in Australia at all. It's not even heard of. They are literally just in the background. And this is why I wanted to get you on this podcast, deborah, because this happens in the US. So you can be grateful that you are at least getting acknowledgement for a week.

Speaker 2: 50:44

Now it's the second week in April, is that correct? Yeah, second week in April. Every single year they have National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week and I think this needs to be a worldwide thing that we actually do here. We have National Nurses Week and National Thank the Police Week and you know international this and thank you that and blah, blah, blah. But I think this is really important because what does it do to you mentally to know that you're being acknowledged in this week, that it's a government strike They've struck it in and this is it?

Speaker 1: 51:17

It's nice that they can recognize that, and here in the States, too, we're trying to push through. And here in the States, too, we're trying to push through. It's called 911 Saves Act. That is going to make us officially first responders here in the United States, as there's many that aren't. California recognizes dispatchers right now and there's several other states that do so, but not on a national level, and it also is changing our classification from secretaries, administration to actual dispatch first responder classification.

Speaker 2: 51:55

That's fantastic. What difference will that make to you that?

Speaker 1: 51:57

will change the way how we can go look for help when we do need our help. When we get these injuries on duty, it makes it easier for us to get treatment, whereas right now it doesn't happen. We're treated more like office workers than we are actual first responders.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Yep, I agree, and I know there will be police listening to this that will say you're joking.

Speaker 2: 52:22

All they do is sit behind a desk, hang on a second, hang on, yeah, hang on a second, hang on, yeah, hang on a second.

Speaker 2: 52:27

Before you say that, how about you come and have a chat with me and I'll tell you this because I covered off on this a bit earlier in this podcast, but I do want to talk about it just briefly and that is these dispatchers and call takers are exposed to trauma after trauma all the time, and it's more difficult than being in the situation and actually confronting it, because it is incredibly frustrating to not be able to do anything at all other than listen to it and or tap the keyboard and take some notes in relation to it to send a unit, and it also creates incredible stress and anxiety for a call taker knowing that they haven't got sufficient information.

Speaker 2: 53:09

But that's all they got, that's all they were able to get. I'm absolutely team dispatcher. I really am. I'm very, very much team call taker and dispatcher because I think they play such a vital and such an important role and they are continually exposed to trauma after trauma, and after a while it definitely does take its toll. If there was one piece of advice that you could actually give to a new dispatcher to protect their mental health, what piece of advice would you give?

Speaker 1: 53:37

them your first year. Go and find your therapist, Go and find your person that's going to treat you. And then learn the skills. Learn coping skills, and it's not only going to help you with your mental health, but it's going to help you with your job.

Speaker 2: 53:54

Yeah, very important, and I think that this is something that an organization needs to have in place culturally competent, someone who understands the role of dispatchers, call takers and is in that workplace that you can communicate with and talk to all the time. I think that's great. How can the listeners support our 911 dispatchers in their communities? We've got National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week, which is a damn sight more than what we have here. There's no awareness here, which is why I'm bringing awareness with this podcast, but how can the listeners support the 911 dispatches?

Speaker 1: 54:26

I don't know if there's programs where citizens can go in and learn about what's going on there. We have what's called a citizens academies here that departments put on that citizens come in and learn about the department and going in and seeing dispatch as part of that Wow.

Speaker 2: 54:44

Having that.

Speaker 1: 54:46

Go in and feed your dispatchers. Make some cookies. Yeah, offer to.

Speaker 2: 54:52

No cookies, no cookies.

Speaker 1: 54:54

Healthy snacks no cookies, no donuts, cheese and meat platters Take them a platter of fruit yes, sorry, no cookies.

Speaker 2: 55:00

No, no cookies, no donuts. Yeah, I bet those officers come in and visit you girls in there and they bring donuts and black coffee and all sorts of stuff for you overnight.

Speaker 2: 55:11

I guarantee that they'll be looking after you girls. Deb, I want to say thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and helping to bring awareness to the role of the 911 dispatcher and get your insights and thoughts around how we can improve for them. Now, as a thank you gift for coming onto the podcast, I've won a billion dollars and I'm going to buy or build you a house anywhere you want in the world. Now it can be somewhere you've been, somewhere you haven't been, but there is a condition on it you have to live in it for six months of the year. Now you can take your dog or your cat or whatever. We'll fly everything there, but you've got to live there for six months. Whereabouts am I building it for you?

Speaker 1: 55:50

Down in Melbourne please.

Speaker 2: 55:53

Do you want to come to Melbourne?

Speaker 1: 55:53

I want to spend the winter in both places, so I'll spend six months of winter down in Australia. Six months of winter in Melbourne and then I'll come back here and spend six months of winter up here, because I just don't like summer.

Speaker 2: 56:10

Okay, can I just say this to you about Melbourne you might have a diagnosis of PTSD and be borderline, but if you try and come to Melbourne and you put up with Melbourne's weather, you will end up with PTSD for sure. Because there's one thing they say about Melbourne here If you don't like Melbourne's weather, you will end up with PTSD for sure. Because there's one thing they say about Melbourne here If you don't like Melbourne's weather, just wait a minute.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Oh see, that's the same as Seattle. Up here, you know, wait five minutes and the weather will change, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 56:36

That's exactly right, Deb. Thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I do really really appreciate it. We'll build you a nice place in Melbourne for coming onto the podcast. Could you tell people, is there anything that you would like to speak about that you haven't had the chance to speak about, or you would like to raise?

Speaker 1: 56:52

Well, I've started a new treatment because my symptoms have come back a little bit. There's an organization called 22 Zero here in the States and they're setting me up with a mental health coach and kind of working on my reoccurring issues. I'm also in a group called the power of our story, which is an online first responder and military support group that we have members all over the world and we have meetings online and it's just, it's fabulous.

Speaker 2: 57:29

Community is everything, isn't it? I'll get you to send those. I'll put the links to those actually in the show notes. If anyone's listening and they would like to have a look at those organizations, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Can people find you? Are you on Instagram, facebook or anything like that? I'm on Instagram Facebook or anything like that.

Speaker 1: 57:44

I'm on Instagram Facebook I kind of keep private but Instagram X YouTube. I have a channel on YouTube that I do.

Speaker 2: 57:53

Okay, so on Instagram I'll get all those links and I'll put the links into the show notes so that people can just go down and click on the links in there too.

Speaker 1: 57:59

I have a link tree that's really easy to get to off of Instagram and it goes to all my social media.

Speaker 2: 58:07

I'll get that off you and we'll put that in the show notes. Deb, thank you so much for your time. I do sincerely appreciate you giving it up for us, thoroughly enjoyed the chat and I wish you all the very best in bringing awareness during what is this week, the National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week, which I think is a really good initiative to just bring awareness to you guys and the work that you do. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 58:30

Thank you so much for having me and letting me be a part of this. This is great, thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:35

And there you have it. That's Deborah Green Fun I can call that was fun and I could literally because of my similarity in the role in my closing years in the police, I could really relate to a lot of what Deborah was saying and it was a fun conversation that I really enjoyed and I hope you did as well. If you did, please don't forget to give the podcast a rating or review. Let Deb know that you enjoyed the conversation and let's bring more awareness to national public safety telecommunicators, because I think they are just so integral in the connection between the public and our first responders. They play a great role and an unsung role, and one that's very, very important. Please, if you've got anything out of the podcast, give it a rating, give it a review. Don't forget, share it with your friends and if you are a dispatcher or a call taker, share it with your colleagues and let's make some noise and bring the Australian government more awareness to National Public Safety Telecommunicator Week.

Speaker 2: 59:41

Imagine if we could get that in in Australia, asia as well. It should be worldwide. Let's make it worldwide. I'll catch you on the next one. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released. It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on. If you want to know more about me or work with me, you can go to ahealthyshiftcom. I'll catch you on the next one.