Shift Worker Wellness and Insights

Speaker 1 0:17

Every couple of weeks we catch up with Roger Sutherland . It's a little segment we call A Healthy Shift . Now , roger , as you know , a veteran law enforcement for over one , two , three , four decades , and Roger now coaches shift workers to thrive , not just survive , while working on the night shift . And there will be many people now in the background that have either worked as night shift workers , maybe still working as shift workers . We want to hear from you as the program unfolds in the next hour or so . A Healthy Shift have a look at it on Instagram a underscore healthy , underscore shift and a Healthy Shift podcast on all the usual platforms . Roger Sutherland , your smiling face , always a joy in the studios of 3AW . Good morning .

Speaker 2 1:01

Good morning to you , tony . How are you this morning ? I'm excited , I'm excited .

Speaker 1 1:04

Well , I know you're excited and we've been sitting here chatting to Hayley for the last 15 or 20 minutes , so there's lots of things to yak about and we'll introduce Hayley more formally in just a moment . But it's really about so we want to get stacks of calls as we go through this next hour or so together 133693 , and for Perth listeners , 133882 . Your experience working as a shift worker and that can entail getting up nice and early . For people that get up at 2 o'clock and work through until midday or thereabouts , and the others like us that start here from 10.30 , 11 and go through the wee small , it's a great family .

Speaker 2 1:41

I think one of the things that we mainly forget about in a very , very big way is when we think shift work , we always think of the night shift , but we forget about the people breaking that sleep and getting up and going in early , or the ones that are working , like in the afternoon , going through into the evening as well . So we say shift work but everyone thinks , oh , night shift , night shift . No , let's think about anybody that's working outside of nine to five , because some of the stats as to how many shift workers there are in the world there's over 2 million just in Australia .

Speaker 2 2:13

Over 2 million , Over 2 million shift workers just in Australia . The US well , we know the population of the US is 430 million people . 22% of those are shift workers as well . That's a lot of shift workers . That's over 70 million shift workers in the US . Well , you can just imagine .

Speaker 1 2:32

I mean I don't know that we've ever really talked about the hospitality industry with any great length . I mean , there's restaurants there's front of house , back of house that are doing that and it's probably not attractive to a lot but really for those that do it , they're doing that day in day . That sometimes , if you're a business owner , maybe seven nights a week , seven days a week , oh , absolutely .

Speaker 2 2:54

And when you walk into your Woolies at seven o'clock in the morning , how do you think the bread got there ? The bakers have been baking that overnight . We also have , you know , overnight we also have and I know I refer to them all the time at the airports , the people that are pulling the planes out , putting the bags on the planes , the pilots and I've coached long haul flight attendants as well and they're at the airport a long time before they're checking for safety on the planes , and then what they're doing is they're going through , then they've got to put all the passengers on the plane and then they're stuck on it for the same amount of time . Then they're stuck on it again afterwards as well , until after the last passengers left , while everybody else is standing up there banging their heads waiting to get off at a . Why do people do that ? Why do people stand up as soon as the plane stops ? For goodness sake , don't start . We could do it .

Speaker 1 3:41

That's a whole story . That's a whole new segment . We'll do a whole segment about that . Let's introduce our very special in-studio guest , which is great . The stressfulness of the job , our very special guest , and I've lost my notes .

Speaker 2 3:54

Do you want me to introduce her ? You're the host . Page two .

Speaker 1 3:58

Thank you Over to page two . Stand by . No , you do it . I've lost it for some reason . Okay , oh , no , there it is down the bottom there . Thank you , our very special guest , big letters , tom , big letters . Our very special guest is Hayley Jamieson just like the whiskey , and Hayley is a wonderful ICU nurse , a passion for everything , as you can imagine . Health and fitness is a big welcome , hello , hayley , and thank you for coming in as a Hayley , and thank you for coming in as a shift worker . Do you recognise any of this ? The lights , the cameras , everything by which we are now surrounded .

Speaker 3 4:34

The cameras are a bit new . We don't have those at work , but yeah , certainly the lights .

Speaker 1 4:39

It's lovely to have you here . How did you run into Roger ?

Speaker 3 4:47

How did he con you to come in here and do this little segment with us ? We met in a business mentorship a bit over 12 months ago , yep , and we recorded our first podcast together about 12 months ago now . Yep , I just happened to be in Melbourne . I flew in this morning , lunchtime today , yesterday now , and I'm doing a different business mentorship . We're doing a retreat in Phillip Island later today for the next few days and I messaged Roger and said , hey , I'll be in Melbourne , are you free for a couch up ?

Speaker 3 5:18

And he's like well , I've got all these things planned , have I got a little role for you .

Speaker 2 5:24

She said I'm going to be in Melbourne for about 24 hours . I've filled 23 and a half of them . The hours Well done . We're going to keep her busy . So we dragged Hayley in tonight to come in as one of our living angels on earth . We want to make sure , because we've got some great callers who are nurses , haven't we ?

Speaker 1 5:42

Yeah , we do , which is fantastic . And we've got some great callers who are nurses , haven't we ? Yeah , we do , which is fantastic , and we'll get to these callers in just a tick 133693 , 133693 . But first I want to talk to you about nursing . How did you get involved ?

Speaker 3 5:52

Did you always ?

Speaker 1 5:53

want to do it .

Speaker 3 5:54

No , I actually wanted to be a physiotherapist but I knew that I wouldn't be able to get the . It's an ATAR in New South Wales . I don't know what . It is the equivalent in Victoria , if it's the same . But I knew that I wouldn't be able to get the ATAR unneeded . So I was told by one of the university lecturers that I went to like an open day to do nursing because the courses are quite similar in that first year and it would be very easy just to get the recommended or the prior learning recognized and can go from there . So I did nursing and enjoyed it so much that I just stuck with it .

Speaker 1 6:38

Did it surprise you that you actually ended up enjoying it as much as you did and do ?

Speaker 3 6:42

Yeah , definitely . It's a very rewarding career . Very tough gig a lot of the time , but it is rewarding .

Speaker 1 6:52

Now , I'm sure Roger's got a couple of questions for you as well , except that I want to talk to you about ICU , which is an acronym for Intensive Care Unit . So how did you thrust yourself into that particular role ? Intensive Care .

Speaker 3 7:05

Unit . So how did you thrust yourself into that particular role ? I was very , very lucky and got the second rotation of my new graduate program in intensive care , and I have just lingered around there ever since In the ICU .

Speaker 2 7:20

Yeah , now we forget

Hospital Medical Team Collaboration

Speaker 2 7:21

about this . But some people like Hayley are looking after people who are critically ill . They're not just people who have gone in there with an ingrown toenail , they're critically ill . And my questions to Hayley is I've got a few that I wanted to talk about tonight on air is how much of that do you actually take on with your patients ? You've got patients there that must be there day in , day out . Every time you go to work they're there . How much of that do you take on ? How personally do you take it ?

Speaker 1 7:50

It's a great question , because you can't always remain detached .

Speaker 3 7:53

Yeah , that is a really good question . I probably take home a lot more than I should . I imagine you would . Yeah , it's very hard . I've spoken to you about this , roger , but we've had a few people in the last few weeks that have had one foot in the grave and it's been the miracle of modern medicine that they've survived the night or the day shift or whatever shift . We're on with this and you know having their family members come in and they're obviously very emotional and it's a very stressful time for them and the patient . You know if they're awake or they might be on life support , so we've put them in a coma . It's very distressing for everyone involved and I think we are very desensitised to just how intense that is , emotional and impactful it is .

Speaker 2 8:47

And the other thing is too , I think a lot of people forget as a nurse , you're caring for the patient , but it's the emotional rollercoaster with the family that you've got to deal with . Like it's one thing to deal with the patient and look at the patient in the bed , but when you've got you know if it's a child , a young person and the father in the bed . But when you've got you know if it's a child , a young person and the father or the mother is there , or the sisters and the husband , the wife , it's very distressing and it goes in deep , doesn't ?

Speaker 3 9:13

it ? Yeah , definitely it's very hard .

Speaker 2 9:14

It's like attending , you know from the police side , attending fatal accidents , and it's not . You do the business when you're doing the job Really , but it's dealing with the families and the emotion , trauma afterwards . You do really take that on heavy .

Speaker 1 9:28

We'll come back and talk more about the emotions in just a moment . If you'd like to join the conversation , you can More than welcome . We've got a couple of callers waiting . You'll get through straight away . Particularly if you've worked in ICU and or have worked over many , many years , presumably as a nurse in any capacity 1-336-3-6-9-3 , australia , overnight More . The other side of this , wherever you are right across Australia , come and join us . 1-double-3-6-9-3 . For Perth listeners , we love you . 1-double-3-8-8-2 . So just your normal number . Roger Sutherland is a regular contributor to the program and our very special guest is Hayley Jameson , a ICU nurse . How long have you been doing this now , hayley ?

Speaker 3 10:08

About eight years now nursing and you haven't aged a little bit .

Speaker 2 10:14

It hasn't aged though .

Speaker 1 10:15

So you're still a baby . Karen in WA , say hello to Hayley .

Speaker 3 10:20

Hello .

Speaker 5 10:21

Hayley . Hi Karen . Yeah , I'm a medical scientist . I work in a hospital . I do quite a bit of shift work . For a lot it can be like starts at 6.45 , 7 , 8.30 , 12pm or 9pm and they're all 10-hour shifts and that's like over seven days , like any time of the week . Seven days .

Speaker 2 10:44

Karen , how long have you been doing that ?

Speaker 5 10:46

I've been doing that for about 11 years .

Speaker 2 10:48

What does a medical scientist do in a hospital on shift work ?

Speaker 5 10:52

Basically we do blood work pathology .

Speaker 2 10:55

Fantastic , so you're counted on . I guess when emergencies come into the hospital . Hayley , you would know more about this medical scientist . Talk us about your reliability on the medical scientists in the hospital .

Speaker 3 11:06

Oh , we're doing blood tests and all sorts of different pathology tests at all hours of the day and night , and that very much directs the care or guides the care that we give , so we rely heavily on them .

Speaker 2 11:19

It's really important . This is the other thing , Tony . We forget about all the people in the background . Yeah , we do the radiologists , the pathologists that are doing all of this care . The patient turns up and all the tests have got to be done on people . The nurses are running around . They're not just putting drips in . They've got to know what to do and when .

Speaker 1 11:38

Yeah , sure they do . Karen , do you have direct contact with patients in the hospital ?

Speaker 5 11:44

No , we don't actually have direct contact with patients in the hospital . No , we don't actually have direct contact with patients . We basically get the blood from the shoot system and it can be quiet one night , very busy the next , particularly when we've got massive transfusion protocols .

Speaker 1 12:01

So you'll have to explain to us what's that protocol .

Speaker 5 12:04

It's basically like a trauma case where you might have like they need blood in a hurry for transfusions .

Speaker 2 12:13

Hayley , talk us through it . When someone comes into a hospital , an ED department , or they come into the ED department to start , off with . We actually have someone who has obviously been involved in a serious collision . What's the role Like ? Just step us through briefly . Where would you get to the stage where the medical pathologist would be doing their job , or the medical scientist ?

Speaker 3 12:36

Yeah , so when they first come in , any patient that comes into the emergency department is triaged and they're given a category depending on how unwell they are . So if it's , you know , life or death situation like a heart attack , they've been involved in a really serious accident or whatever they would be a we call it a category one or a cat one . So they go straight to the resus bays . Every man and their dog that's working in the ED seems to just gravitate to that area . And then we start doing assessments . So all the doctors will be doing their assessment , making sure the patients we go through an algorithm . We call it A to G , so airway , breathing , circulation , disability , which is their cognition , yep . So we make sure all their major systems are okay . And then we start doing all the nitty-gritty stuff like ordering blood tests and getting x-rays , so I assume someone's drawing blood .

Speaker 6 13:38

Yeah .

Speaker 2 13:39

At some stage the doctor says window to the body , isn't it ? Yeah it tells us so much information . So I guess a doctor says get to the body , because blood's a window to the body , isn't it ? It tells us so much information . So I guess a doctor says get blood , so straight away someone's tapping in and pulling blood from them , and then that goes from what Karen said it goes into a chute system .

Speaker 3 13:55

I don't know what the actual name of it is , because we just call it the chute .

Speaker 2 13:59

But there is a . That's the official word . It's the chute .

Speaker 1 14:02

Put it in the chute , send it down the chute . Send it down the chute .

Speaker 3 14:06

There's a fancy term for it , but I can't remember what it's called . But it's very , very handy . It saves our beautiful wardsmen .

Speaker 2 14:14

Running backwards and forwards and the chute goes off . And then how long does it take , karen , how long does it take for you , once you receive the bloods , to do the analysis ?

Speaker 5 15:18

It depends on the actual test . Your basic test , like your full blood , the maybe kidney , might be 10 to 15 minutes . Things like a troponin , which is for a heart attack , that might be about 25 minutes . Blood transfusions like routine ones will be , say , 40 minutes . The doctors can order emergency Oneg and they can get that straight away if they need it .

Speaker 2 15:48

Wow , okay . So it really is such a critical job , isn't it ? And you guys are sitting there waiting because you don't know what to do until the blood comes back , do you ?

Speaker 3 15:56

I want to work at the hospital , karen works at because our blood tests did not come back that quickly ?

Speaker 1 15:59

That's true , because you don't know what to do until the blood comes back , do you , roy . I want to work at the hospital . Karen works at . Yeah , because our blood tests did not come back that quickly . That's true , look out .

Speaker 5 16:07

So , Karen , are you allowed to say which hospitals you work in ? Oh , it's over in the south-eastern suburb of Perth .

Speaker 1 16:11

Okay , yeah , beautiful . Wish you well , karen .

Speaker 2 16:15

Thank you for being part of the program . You're welcome . And thanks for doing what you're doing , Karen too , it's great , yeah , amazing .

Speaker 1 16:20

We'll do this when we come back plenty of time for your calls . We'll go to Lenny . We'll go to Chris O Troy's there in Collie as well . 133693 . Very special guest . He is in the studio . Hayley Jamieson , roger's here . Hayley Jamieson is in the studio along with Roger Southern . We're talking about shift workers , but Hayley , of course I see you in Port Mac . Does it get really intense at 1 , 2 , 3 o'clock in the morning ? Does it feel ? I mean , the perception many of us probably has is that it's always intense , not like a TV drama , but there's just this level of anxiety and intensity , a lot of concentration , a lot of activity .

Speaker 3 17:01

Yeah , it very much depends on the patients that we have in the unit at the time and what's going on with them . But I feel like it's always that three o'clock mark the witching hour , that everything kind of hits the fan .

Speaker 1 17:16

Full moon a real thing .

Speaker 3 17:18

Yes .

Speaker 2 17:19

Oh , yeah , yeah , Absolutely , it's a full . You've only got to ask a policeman or ask a nurse . Ambos . Yeah , ambos Paramedics . They will tell you scientifically backed .

Speaker 1 17:32

Do you have any ? If you were writing the book about that , do you know why that is ?

Speaker 3 17:37

I don't know . The moon affects people in weird and wonderful ways .

Speaker 1 17:44

What do you mean by that ? Troy and Collie hello .

Speaker 9 17:49

Yes . Troy it doesn't even affect the tide , tony , it does it does affect the tide .

Speaker 1 17:54

Who thought , troy , you wanted to ask a question ?

Speaker 9 17:58

Yeah , I did . Now my motto I've been on both ends of the thing . I worked fairly hard for 25 years and now I'm on a disability line pension . So mine is do you work to live or do you live to work ? But that's not my question . My question is do you work to live or do you live to work ? But that's not my question . My question is , I think , that the body , the body clock and that is basically structured to work basically in daylight hours . So these people that work at the night time , and that it must take a toll on them over their whole lives . That won't happen , but it will happen , Troy ?

Speaker 1 18:45

that's a great question . Roger will respond to that .

Speaker 2 18:48

We're learning more and more and more about this . Human beings are diurnal creatures and we should not be working . Sorry , what sort of a creature ?

Speaker 2 18:54

A diurnal creature which means we sleep at diurnal Diurnal as against nocturnal , a diurnal creature , which means we sleep at diurnal , diurnal as against nocturnal .

Speaker 2 19:00

Nocturnal meaning being awake at night , sleeping during the day , whereas diurnal means that we should be awake during the day and asleep at night , and that is our biological light and day function . One of the things that's critical and we're learning a lot about it , particularly recently is the impact that this light has on us at night in relation to our melatonin production . Now we think of melatonin as our sleep hormone , but it's not our sleep hormone at all . It's actually the darkness hormone . So what it's doing is it's signaling darkness to the body . So what happens if we're working in a hospital overnight and we're exposed to all of this LED light , which is blue , rich LED , confusing our circadian rhythm and our biological function ? Now , melatonin is produced in the absence of blue light . So if there is blue light , like we've got above here and looking at the screen that you're looking over my shoulder , is that blue light is inhibiting melatonin , and melatonin is actually our free radical scavenger , which means it is scavenging our cancer cells in our bloodstream .

Speaker 1 20:08

So , yes , it's going to get confusing . It's confusing , yeah it is , but what it is ?

Speaker 2 20:12

it's a hormone that's released as a result of darkness . So should I have less light in here , or more light ? Oh , much less , much less . And this blue light that we've got , that we're looking at at the moment , is horrendous on us .

Speaker 1 20:25

I'd bring it up at the next meeting .

Speaker 2 20:27

The next start , I would have the screens off and these lights dim right down .

Speaker 1 20:31

Good on you , Lenny . Hello to you .

Speaker 7 20:34

Good evening guys . Yeah , tony , good evening guys . Yeah , tony . I work , as you know , for Qantas Long time and Australia and all that and as a high-lift driver for Qantas and Australia and For the most part , lenny did you love it all , or were there highs and lows ? I'll give you the mail . Mate , right , it was the best part of my working life . Yeah , there you go . I'll tell you we just were a group .

Speaker 2 21:14

Len you really enjoyed the people that you worked with , didn't you ? This is another thing the camaraderery , isn't it , hayley ? Working on night shift

Shift Work Bonding and Adaptation

Speaker 2 21:20

with the same people . I think when we work overnight , there's a particular bond with night shift people that you're working with . Everyone looks forward to who's on and have fun with the people that you're on with .

Speaker 3 21:30

I don't know if it's like a trauma bond or .

Speaker 1 21:33

A trauma bond . Well , talk about that , because I think there is something in that I agree , that is the connection that people have in that emergency situation , when you're sitting around the desk and you're having a cup of tea together and you might have that break for 3 , 5 , 10 or 15 minutes . How important is all of that .

Speaker 3 21:50

Oh , it's so important just to one connect with our colleagues and develop that relationship and that bond with each other emergency situations or critical situations happen that we can all function really well as a team together .

Speaker 2 22:09

Yeah , and we've got people that are . While we're talking amongst ourselves , you're actually developing that bond so that when you go into that situation , you know how to speak to that person to get them to do what you want them to do . It teaches a lot .

Speaker 1 22:25

Good on you , craig . Say hello to both our very special guests here in the studio . Craig's on the road , whereabouts are you , craig ?

Speaker 11 22:32

In Perth . How are you , tyler guys ?

Speaker 1 22:34

Sensational . You wanted to add what ?

Speaker 11 22:38

I'm an XR , I'm a retired XR with a veteran and talking about shift work , there are many times where , at sea , we would be doing what we would call two watches , where you're doing fives and sevens , so you'd work for five hours during the day and then you'd do a seven-hour shift at night . Now , at night , the ships would also darken the ship and you were talking about blue light , but out at sea they darken shift utilising red light , which allows your eyes to adjust to the night before you actually have to go outside .

Speaker 2 23:15

Yeah , the red light's excellent , and red light is actually a good light to have that doesn't inhibit your melatonin production as well , provided there's no blue in the red light , which is another way it's got to be tested , and I'm sure , doing that , if it's red , you would find that there would be no blue light actually in it . How did you find , did you find that it actually was a lot more gentle on your eye and how did it impact on your sleep ?

Speaker 11 23:43

It is a lot more gentle on the eyes , especially if you're transiting from out to in into the red light , then the white light makes it a lot easier . The fives and seven shifts that we used to work , so from seven till midday , and then you'd come back on at five o'clock that afternoon and work through till midnight . You do that for a month and actually , and then you go back , go ashore for a couple of actually , and then you go back , go ashore for a couple of days and then you go out and you do the opposite . It actually really does affect your sleep patterns and it took a good six to 12 months for me to get used to a proper , good night's sleep afterwards it's a long time Any of those issues addressed in training and leading up to the role itself .

Speaker 11 24:26

No , not really In training for the role . In training for when we get to the roles , yes , but no , not in actual training , as in work-wise it was just okay . So this is what we're going to do , and off you go and do it .

Speaker 2 24:41

Yeah , this is my point . At the moment , people are taught how to do a job . They're not taught how to cope and function properly in shift work at all , in any job anywhere , and I'd love to hear from someone that said oh no , we had great training around our shift work . We know exactly when to eat what to eat , what to do , when to sleep , how to go about sleeping , hydration , caffeine , nicotine . There's no education around that in any way whatsoever . There's an opening there for someone .

Speaker 1 25:11

Would you agree with that , Craig ? Is that pretty much your experience ?

Speaker 11 25:15

It is because a lot of the times , the sleeping areas or the messes on board the ships , when you're doing those 5s and 7s what they call defence watches or two watches the messes would always be in red light because or that yeah , red light in the messes because people would be sleeping , so you'd be sleeping with the red light on around you . Um , you wouldn't be sleeping in a dark and in a fully darkened room at all , it's just red lights are . If you're walking through there during the day , you can see where you're going . Overnight you can see where you're going , yep .

Speaker 11 25:51

And with red light .

Speaker 2 25:54

Sorry , sorry , but with red light our body , if there's no blue light , our body doesn't even know that it's light . That's the thing .

Speaker 1 26:00

Yeah .

Speaker 2 26:01

Inside , in these lights that we've got around us , in any light , if there's no blue in the light , as in not the blue colour , but if there's no blue , because white light is a mixture of all the colours , but we won't go into that . But if there's no blue in it , our body doesn't even know that it's awake at all , craig , we'll let you go .

Speaker 1 26:19

It's a great call . Thank you very much for that . I often wonder about those that say you're shift workers on I . I wonder about those that say you're shift

Night Shift Challenges and Health Risks

Speaker 1 26:28

workers on , I don't know , a submarine , for example . Yep , if you've got your six or eight hours , or whatever it is , in a sub and you go down into this very small space , what's that like ?

Speaker 2 26:36

Horrendous . I have no idea .

Speaker 1 26:38

I'd love to find somebody that was on a sub .

Speaker 2 26:40

Yeah , we'd love to find someone that worked on a sub or something like that , because that would be really interesting , because you would have no comprehension day , night at all .

Speaker 1 26:48

No , alison , you're in Adelaide . Are you a shift worker as well , alison ?

Speaker 6 26:52

Well , I used to be . I did night duty for many years and I can't sleep at night , no way , and I can be up 24 hours . I can do that easy peasy , and I try and sleep at some times so that I can sleep at night and be up all day . But it just doesn't work . I'm up all night , I sleep all day and I just can't change that . But I'm okay with it , like it doesn't bother me . But it's interesting . I just cannot sleep at night .

Speaker 2 27:17

Oh , but it's so detrimental to your health and there is , don't get me wrong here .

Speaker 1 27:22

Well , let me just you say that , but , alison , do you say that it is detrimental to you ?

Speaker 6 27:26

Well , no , I love it actually . I love being up at night thinking everyone's asleep and I've got the world to myself .

Speaker 2 27:33

I know people think that , alison , I totally sympathise with you , but the thing is , we are not designed to do that and we are exposing ourselves to light . Now the problem that we have , and it's this simple if we inhibit melatonin , then we're leaving ourselves biologically exposed to disease in a very , very big way . So by doing what they're doing Sorry , can I just clarify you're no longer doing night duty , but this is the side issue from having done night duty .

Speaker 6 28:05

Yes , and I will add that I've got a very nasty cancer at the moment , so whether that's got anything to do with what you're talking about , I don't know . I'm sorry to hear that .

Speaker 2 28:17

I am sorry to hear that but I can tell you statistically , since the inception of Blue Rich LED Light , breast cancer has gone up 50 in females um over the years . So we have big problems with this and , funnily enough , females are more vulnerable to the cancers on night shift , particularly breast cancer , males with prostate cancer , but more so females . The research tells us categorically that females do not cope well and it will . It has a lot to do also with um the estrogen , because it inhibits estrogen as well and females count on estrogen of course they do .

Speaker 1 28:56

Uh , david says from frankfurt . I'm coming back to australia next week for a couple of months where I'll be having uh to shift my working hours from uh to 6 pm to 3am , so across that nine hours . When's the best time to have a meal , given the temptation at home to snack throughout the shift ? What kind of light is needed in , say , the home office ?

Speaker 2 29:17

Now I've spoken to David . David's messaged me through Instagram as well . I think we gave him a cheerio . I'm pretty sure it's the same person . Now , david , your meal . We need to not be eating when melatonin is elevated in our system , and that generally happens around about three hours after darkness once melatonin is elevated . So I would be looking at around before 9pm or around 9pm making sure that's the last time that you get a good low GI meal in Now . The reason why we go low GI is because it stabilises our blood sugar overnight , so we don't get that spike and that crash . So investigate low GI If you go to ahealthyshiftcom and under my resources tab . I've actually got a free e-book there which is on low GI eating and how people can learn to eat low GI , because I'm a firm believer now that shift workers should be on low GI afternoon and night shift , have that and just sip on water overnight , because we confuse hunger with dehydration in a big way .

Speaker 1 30:22

Well , we've been hearing that for a long time , haven't we ? It's true .

Speaker 2 30:25

Well , it comes from the same brain part . Right , yeah , probably . It comes from the hypothalamus and hunger and dehydration . The brain confuses , whichever one it is . So if you keep sipping water , you generally tend to find that it gets rid of the cravings and also that hunger for you as well .

Speaker 1 30:42

So I bought that coffee so that coffee will last me , but I'm mixing that with water .

Speaker 2 30:45

Yeah , yeah , and coffee's okay overnight . Sipping it overnight it's when we're chugging coffee at 3 , 4 o'clock in the morning to stay awake , and that's a trap , isn't it , hayley , definitely .

Speaker 1 30:57

Hayley's sitting there very quietly thinking why did you bring me in here , roger ?

Speaker 2 31:03

Well , we just asked her about the coffee on night shift . No , we want to talk . I do have questions to ask Hayley . When we come back .

Speaker 1 31:08

We'll come back straight after this . It is Australia Overnight . I'm Tony McManus . Roger Sutherland is here . Our very special guest is Hayley Jamieson , who is an ICU nurse , and you're visiting your love down there at Phillip Island .

Speaker 3 31:21

Yeah , I'm so excited . Are you going to see the penguins ? I hope so .

Speaker 1 31:24

I hope you see the penguins , you'll love them down there . We'll come back . More of your calls the other side of this . Come and join us . 133693 . The text messages keep them ticking over . We'll look at those for you as well . 0477 693 693 . Oh , roger has a clarification . What have you got .

Speaker 2 31:40

I do have a clarification , because Max has just raised with us that someone's called in about melatonin and people are thinking that melatonin is a supplement that you take . Melatonin is actually naturally produced hormone in the pineal gland of our brain . Pooly , dooly , yeah . So what happens is what was the In response to darkness ? So what happens is in the response to darkness . Now Max has raised it . Caveman , what did they do when they didn't have melatonin ? They've always had melatonin , because as soon as it gets dark , the pineal gland produces melatonin . So therefore , that melatonin is naturally produced in the body to signal darkness to the rest of the body . Is this where we go in the sunlight ? So this is why we go out in the sunlight early in the day to suppress that melatonin and tell the body it's daytime , because when it registers light it goes . Oh , light , suppress melatonin .

Speaker 1 32:34

Greg's in the mel Morning Greg .

Speaker 4 32:37

Yeah , how you going .

Speaker 1 32:38

Well , thank you .

Speaker 4 32:39

Now I was really interested about this , what you said about this melatonin . Now , with the darkness of melatonin and you say that it suppresses the things in your brain , look , I've had quite a few issues . I was in an unfortunate situation where I saved a bloke's life in a fatal car accident and at that particular time I was doing a night shift and I was driving a bread truck during the night and I really struggled with things , sort of to be able to recover . I thought I was fairly strong , but it really got me down . Strong , but it really got me down . Do you think that when you're talking about the sunlight with melatonin , is that a serotonin to make you feel better , or not Greg .

Speaker 2 33:41

It's clearly really impacted on you . Obviously it's one of those traumatic events on you and obviously it's one of those traumatic events . One thing that we do know for a fact is daylight , nighttime . If that's out of sync and our circadian rhythm is out of sync with that normal diurnal rotation daytime , awake , sleep time , at nighttime it impacts severely on our mental health . And by impacting on our mental health health , it means that traumas can literally be trapped all the time that it goes in . And this is why hayley , working in this icu and I wanted to bring that up , I don't want to diss what greek's saying , but I'm telling you that daytime , nighttime desynchronization impacts severely on our mental health .

Speaker 3 34:24

Hay , hayley 1,000 million percent .

Speaker 2 34:28

Yeah , so the more impact that you have , the worse you feel , don't you on night shift ?

Speaker 3 34:34

Yeah , especially like after my last night shift , so I won't . I'll only have a few hours sleep on that day so I can get back into a normal , a normal melody .

Speaker 2 34:45

Whatever normal is , yeah whatever normal is , whatever normal is , whatever day it is , whatever day it is .

Speaker 3 34:50

I become so emotionally irrational my partner will agree to that I'll just burst into tears over absolutely nothing and he's just like oh , you're so dramatic .

Speaker 2 35:02

I'm coming out of night shift .

Speaker 3 35:03

Leave me alone .

Speaker 1 35:05

So that is you get home , at what time ?

Speaker 3 35:08

Just to give you an example . So I work 7 to 7.30 .

Speaker 1 35:12

So by the time you get home it's going to be close to 8.30 presumably 12 hours . And then what happens ? You jump into the cot by 9? .

Speaker 3 35:19

Yeah , so I'll have a shower . If I'm super organised , I'll try to have breakfast at work but depending on the shift , that doesn't always happen . So I'll have brekkie as soon as I get home as well , and then hopefully go straight to bed , depending on how long it takes me to wind down . But , yeah , hopefully get a few hours sleep and get back into it .

Speaker 2 35:43

A few hours and then back up again , and this is where the emotional comes from . Fatigue as well , chronic fatigue . Desynchronised , our body doesn't know whether it should be vertical or horizontal , it doesn't know whether it should be vertical .

Speaker 1 35:53

Briefly , we're running out of time . Briefly , then , what does Greg do under the circumstances ?

Speaker 2 35:57

Well , what Greg needs to do is get early daylight and stay out and just get some early movement in the morning is the key . Get early movement in the morning is the key . Get early movement in the morning time . Doris , have you got a quick question ?

Speaker 12 36:09

Yeah , yeah , yes , please , roger , you are awesome , just with salt lamps . Would salt lamps help people with shift work ? Like if salt lamps were on during shift work anywhere , would that help ? And also , roger , do you speak to schools ? You are awesome the way you explain things . You make things that are complicated .

Speaker 1 36:31

He's very , very good , doris , we agree .

Speaker 2 36:32

Would you reach out through the website ? I'd love to go and speak in a school . Yeah , please Reach out to me . Go to ahealthyshiftcom and in there is a link to communicate with me , and I'd be happy to have a conversation with you and speak in schools . Good on you , doris .

Speaker 1 36:53

We'll give all those details . The other side of this . Now this is Australia Overnight with Tony McManus , g'day . Nice to have your company wherever you are . You might be listening 3AW in Melbourne , hopefully you are , that's you . 5aa in Adelaide and , of course , 6pr in Perth and the Ace Radio Network right throughout Victoria and into southern New South Wales . Good morning to you , wherever you are . Come and join us . Roger and special guest Hayley Jamieson have nicely said they'll stay for another 10 or 15 and then we'll go back to some open line . Really interesting text here . Roger says Roger would be invaluable as a guest at not only schools but emergency services . Well , you do a lot of that anyway , don't you ?

Speaker 2 37:34

Well , I don't do a lot of it , but I'm open to it .

Speaker 1 37:37

There you go His ability to relate such very complex issues , things that really need clarity . Thanks also to 3OW for getting both the guests in . And should salt lamps be used more regularly during night shift . So just explain the idea of a night of a salt lamp .

Speaker 2 37:55

Okay , so the salt lamp I think she's more talking about because of the colour , which is the orange yes , but you can't have lights on overhead and have the salt lamp . It's not magic .

Speaker 1 38:06

What is a salt lamp ?

Speaker 2 38:07

It's not magic . What is a salt lamp ? It's a block of salt that's got a light in it . Oh , this is the one you said that I should be getting .

Speaker 1 38:13

I told you to get a salt lamp ages ago I had a look at them , and what difference would that make to my world ?

Speaker 2 38:21

It would make you a less grumpy person .

Speaker 1 38:26

I think there are people in this audience who would say I know what we'd like to do with that salt lamp , do you Well ?

Speaker 3 38:31

that's right . Well , yes , maybe you just need a really big one , a really big salt lamp , a really big one .

Speaker 2 38:38

I would get one about six foot tall orange standard in the corner , ali do you have a salt lamp ?

Speaker 3 38:43

at home , I do .

Speaker 1 38:44

And it makes a difference .

Speaker 3 38:46

I don't know if it does , I like it looks nice .

Speaker 2 38:49

But they absorb all the negative ions out of the air and I'll tell you that they do sweat .

Speaker 1 38:56

Sounds like a bad episode of Seinfeld .

Speaker 2 38:57

If it's a good one . They actually sweat and you can tell .

Speaker 3 39:01

Yeah , mine gets a bit hot and sweaty . Can get a bit more stir underneath it .

Speaker 2 39:05

Yeah , so the salt lamps in answer to this amazing text from Doris . Thank you so much . Salt lamps are great . If you're anybody that's listening to this show in bed at night , if you had a salt lamp on ,

Sleep Strategies for Night Shift Workers

Speaker 2 39:19

you'd be so much better off as , in just having that light instead of a light overhead , you'd put them to sleep . No , I wouldn't put well , yes , well , they should be asleep .

Speaker 13 39:31

Hello .

Speaker 2 39:34

You're here to entertain those that are awake .

Speaker 1 39:36

But you're saying what we've got to do is put the audience to sleep . Will I do that ? No , we want our audience healthy .

Speaker 2 39:42

We want a healthy audience that's mentally strong , and what we want is people . While they're sitting there listening to your dulcet tones on the air overnight , they have their salt lamp on instead of their bedside lamp , which is rich blue light .

Speaker 1 39:57

Leo . Leo say hello , Look , leo's a great friend of the program .

Speaker 2 40:03

I thought you were going to say Leo Sayer .

Speaker 1 40:04

then no , Leo's a great friend of the program and drives much of the night . Hello , Leo .

Speaker 10 40:10

Hi , as everybody knows , I drive up overnight mostly , and what I find is around 7 , 8 o'clock or 6 , 7 o'clock , depending on whenever the sun starts to come up . I get this massive tiredness go through me and I'm wondering what I can do to avoid that .

Speaker 2 40:33

That's a really , really good question , because that is a natural biological cycle . So you've been just to clarify , you've been driving overnight and as the sun starts to come up , that's when you get chronically fatigued .

Speaker 10 40:48

Exactly , and I'm okay before and I'm okay afterwards , but that sort of 20 , 30 minutes of it I just . I mean , occasionally , if I get a chance , I pull over and try and have a little bit of sleep , but most of the time I've got people in the car , so you can't really do that .

Speaker 2 41:06

Yes , I understand that , and that's a really , really tricky one , because it's a natural biological function for that to happen . That is what we call a sleep homeostat . It is the pressure on your body to sleep . So if I was you , what sort of time do you finish after that ?

Speaker 10 41:25

In most days I finish about 10-ish , depending on the day . Most days it's around 9 , 10 , 11 . Some days I finish as early as 4am .

Speaker 2 41:34

Now a lot of people won't like me saying this but it's almost contradictory . But I'm going to say 50mg of caffeine at around about 4 , 5 o'clock in the morning is just enough to just to block that sleep homeostat to help you to get through that period of time . Now when I say 50 milligrams , that's not going by a latte at the , at the servo what sort of coffee would you ? Have . Well , you would just have a small long black bet all right , so no milk a pod from an espresso machine to rent about 90 milligrams .

Speaker 2 42:04

So you would put like half of one of those in or an espresso shot and fill it up with water and just sip on that overnight Like you've got your coffee here , and just sipping it overnight is actually okay A small V has 75 milligrams of caffeine in it .

Speaker 3 42:18

A small V yeah , that's a good option as well , so maybe that's a good one to have .

Speaker 2 42:22

But if you can get a small V and maybe not the sugar one but the sugar-free one have a small V , then you can . There you are . That's from Hayley . So what's a small V ?

Speaker 1 42:32

The V is the energy drink . Yeah , oh right , okay , it's another topic . Yeah , it is . Yeah , I'd ban them all .

Speaker 2 42:39

But you know it's an easy way to get a controlled amount of caffeine in .

Speaker 10 42:49

So , leo , when you get home and jump in the cot , for how long will you sleep ?

Speaker 3 42:51

Usually , I try , to sleep about eight nine hours .

Speaker 10 42:52

Well , you do . I also find that if something happens , like if I get a phone call or something , I can't get back to sleep .

Speaker 1 43:00

Turn your phone off . Turn the phone off , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 43:04

You've got to make sleep a priority when you get there , because of the biological functions that sleep do in our body while we are sleeping . It's so important .

Speaker 1 43:14

I can't tell you how many people friends , loved ones , acquaintances ring or don't ring and say I didn't ring because I didn't know what time you'd be up and I said , well , the phone's off , leave a message and I'll come back to you .

Speaker 2 43:24

I know people I've had senior sergeants that I've worked with that leave their phones on when they're on night shift and then they complain that they got woken up .

Speaker 1 43:33

Yeah . That's not intelligent at all . Did you mention that to senior sergeant ? Yeah , I did .

Speaker 2 43:38

Senior sergeant why did you ?

Speaker 1 43:39

not turn your phone off .

Speaker 2 43:41

Because just in case , you know , just in case .

Speaker 1 43:43

Nothing's just in case , but I sort of understand that that's the world in which , certainly , officers live . They don't want to be letting down team members .

Speaker 2 43:53

I would have thought Not at that level . Not at that level . I can understand Inspector above , but not at Senior Sergeant level . Unless they're out running a one-man station , there's no need . When I say one man , you wouldn't have that . But there's no need to have your phone on unless you're on call .

Speaker 1 44:09

Jimmy , here in Adelaide , now are you a salt lamp person .

Speaker 13 44:14

I've never used one in my life , but I'm sorry , mate . What was the name of your male guest there ?

Speaker 1 44:22

It's Roger .

Speaker 13 44:23

Roger , how you doing mate Very well , how are you ? Yeah , we're all still breathing , mate . Fantastic . We give thanks to our good Lord Jesus . He lets us all keep doing it . Every day we can mate . Yes , Now you've intrigued me , sir , your statement about negative ions . Now , one of the things that allow us to know that one of those big , bad , nasty storms are brewing and coming in are the negative ions that we can smell , and I thought that was actually like a bonus , a good thing that allows all the heavier sort of particles to fall to the earth , if I'm not wrong . Particles to fall to the earth , if I'm not wrong , and the negative ions that you can smell . I was always inclined I'm not sure where I got the information from , I'll admit but I thought that was actually a good thing .

Speaker 2 45:19

Roger , I'm not entirely sure you can smell a negative ion right , but what the impurities in air is what the salt lamp is actually removing from the air In your bedroom , for example . Well , you can have it in the bedroom . I have ours in the lounge room . I use the salt lamp every single night in the lounge room . That's the only light we have on in our lounge room at night . We don't have the overhead lights , no white light , it's just the salt lamp and that's enough light for eating , dining , walking , cooking .

Speaker 2 45:51

And do you know what ? And I know you work nights but for someone who is a nine-to-fiver , if you have that salt lamp on and that's the only light that's on within two to three hours of dark , you're gone . You are absolutely more than ready for sleep because it allows that onset of that melatonin signaling to the body that it's dark . Time for bed . Time for bed .

Speaker 1 46:14

Jimmy , thank you for that . When we come back , I want to talk to you , hayley , about the work that you do in IC , in particular when it comes to young people . That's the one thing . I've been an advocate for a long time with working with young children , children that get . Can you imagine what it would be like in Gaza at the moment , those war zones where these children , for no fault of their own , find themselves either devastated , badly injured ? What would that be like in that situation ? So I'll get your thoughts on that . We'll do that . Next it is Australia Overnight . More of your calls , the other side . If you'd like to join us , feel free . Plenty of room on the board 133693

Nurse's Mental Health and Coping

Speaker 1 46:52

. Perth listeners 133882 . Hayley Jamison , icu nurse . We'll take a couple of calls 133693 , before we let you go . I just want to talk to you about the idea , the . I just want to talk to you about the idea , the intensity of working in ICU in any property , and I think at any one time you've got what did you say ? Seven or eight beds ? Did I get that right ?

Speaker 3 47:13

So we in our unit we have 10 beds that are funded , 10 beds .

Speaker 1 47:16

This is in Port Mac in New South Wales and so pretty busy most evenings , most days and nights .

Speaker 3 47:23

Yeah , we had quite a few weeks not long ago that it was very quiet and we were all a little bit on edge , as is the calm before the storm , but it's back to normal now . Normal means busy Storm . The storm is happening , but it's good . We prefer to be busy .

Speaker 1 47:44

As compared to us as a very younger person , younger woman , how do you maintain your mental health around a lot of those things that you're doing and the work , particularly overnight , shift working ?

Speaker 3 47:56

When I first started . So I started nursing , I'd freshly turned 21 . And that was a big , big slap in the face . I think it was a very big shock to the system . I'm very lucky that I have such a good team , that I work with All of the nurses , my manager , all of our doctors . We're all a very we're like a little family , so it's good to be able to debrief with everyone at work if there's things bothering us . But yes , but yes .

Speaker 1 48:31

Not easy sometimes Not easy sometimes so .

Speaker 2 48:34

Hayley , what do you do when you finish work ? How do you ? Because it's intense , right , you've got 10 beds and they're obviously full all the time because of funding and things like that . So what do you do about unwarranted ? What boundaries do you put in place between home and work ? So that you don't take it home . Are you able to do that ?

Speaker 3 48:55

I have turned off notifications to our group chat , that's a good start . So I only check that when I feel like it .

Speaker 2 49:02

Yeah , that's good . Did you notice that was impacting on you ?

Speaker 3 49:05

Yeah , big time , especially since I started doing in-charge shifts . Yeah , and you know they post in it . Oh , can someone work ? Tonight We've had a sick call . Blah , blah , blah , and then I would start getting really anxious about that , or the guilt oh no , like especially if I was in charge on that shift that they're trying to cover for it's like , oh God , we're going to be working short-staffed Like this , isn't ? It's going to be a mess .

Speaker 2 49:32

One thing I've noticed about nurses that I've coached is the guilt . Yeah , Because of that team . If they get that notification and they know that their team is short , they have the worst guilt of any shift worker anywhere .

Speaker 1 49:46

But that would be a lot for a lot of front workers . Whether it were coppers or the AMBOs , the fireys , in whatever capacity , you don't want to let down your team .

Speaker 2 49:56

I would have thought , no , you don't . But I think nursing in particular , because I think they're just . I mean , everyone's so caring but it's hard to explain . But no one like nurses get those text messages and those calls and those group chats like others do like , if like nursing a rule in their group chats , and that's where the messages come from for overtime and things like that , whereas in the cops you're waiting for a phone call from a withheld number um , we need someone to you know , fill this shift or whatever , or they just run it short and that's the problem . But the guilt is terrible and you've noticed that for yourself . So to help you with that , you've turned the notifications off on your group chat .

Speaker 2 50:38

I'm huge on this with clients . You've got to turn those notifications off and those group chats , because I think group chats are more dangerous than they're good in a lot of cases , and so I think by turning the notifications off gives you a barrier . What else do you do ? Have you put in place ?

Speaker 3 50:54

Yeah , depending on how stressful the shift's been , I'll sit in the car for probably 10 minutes when I get home , just to try to decompress a little bit . I I am someone that does struggle to meditate , but I do try my best to do it . I'll listen to a guided meditation , do some breath work . Journaling has also helped . That's something that I am not very good at , but I do find that writing down my thoughts can just help to get them out of my brain .

Speaker 2 51:26

It's excellent . Yeah , that's evidence-based too . Very , very strong science behind journaling . Tony , we see the impact that this has on our young nurses , don't we ? And our nurses are dealing with that sitting in their cars when they get home and then waking up in the car too , because you've fallen asleep . How many times have you done that ?

Speaker 3 51:46

A few After night shift .

Speaker 2 51:47

Don't laugh .

Speaker 3 51:48

Fallen asleep .

Speaker 2 51:50

I've actually propped nurses and shift workers at traffic lights asleep . I haven't been that bad . I've got a secret for you , though I think I've told you about this one . Flash a badge . No , get your ponytail , put it out through the sunroof , close the sunroof . And what does that do ? When you nod off , it pulls your hair and it wakes you up , leanne .

Speaker 1 52:10

Leanne . Hello . Say hello to Hayley .

Speaker 14 52:13

Hi Hayley and Roger and Sonny . Just on what you were saying , roger . The thing is like I was in a rescue squad , hayley , so I've seen a lot of stuff as well . We're the first people to see them , but you guys are last and you get the unfortunate results sometimes . So that is very stressful on your mind , like you know . It goes down the line Like we cut them out of the car . The police are there and fireys and ambos , but you guys , you're the ones , you are angels and you've got to cop unfortunate results of those accidents and general health . And every nurse on this planet is an angel as far as I'm concerned .

Speaker 3 53:04

Thank you , Leanne . Roger and I were actually speaking about this earlier . Well , yesterday , now that I said , I think it would be incredibly difficult to do your job because you guys are , as you said , cutting them out of the car , scraping people off the side of the road , whereas when they get to us , they're tied up in a nice little shiny bow and they're a little bit fixed by the time they get , yeah , but they're not fixed because some of them don't survive their injuries .

Speaker 14 53:36

Us , we're able to . It takes a special person to be able to just switch off , and I could . You know I could do that . My first fatality that I went to was on my mind for a couple of weeks and I had the squad behind me and I talked to the training officer and I'll never forget that girl or the parents . But we just learned to switch off . And I mean , the police can do the . Some police can do the same , some AMBOS can do the same , some fireys can do the same .

Speaker 2 54:10

Leanne , this is such a good call . I mean a really , really good call because what you're doing is you're saying , in the heat of the moment , you're doing your job . While you're there , you're actually doing the job and you're packaging them up . You may not be expecting them to live , but they've gone from you so they're not out of mind , out of sight . So they're not out of mind , out of sight , but they've gone from you . But then you get the likes of Hayley working in the emergency department or at ICU , doing absolutely everything that they can do given the information they've got , and they're there at the end . If the person was to pass over , they're there at the end . And then they've got to deal with the trauma of the family , They've got to deal with the trauma of the death . Then they feel that failure themselves as well , that could we have done something more ? The psychoanalyzing could we have done more ? Did we do something right ? Such a good call and a great acknowledgement as well , Leanne , Fantastic .

Speaker 1 55:02

Leanne , it's a great call . Thank you for that , hayley . What about relationships that you've seen for yourself and for others in the short time that you've been doing this or in the time that you've been doing this and the impact that that has ? Roger and I've spoken this in the past about uh officers , of course , serving officers and what that does to family life and the impact of anybody working shift work . But in the emergency services area it's it's challenging and remains challenging and then throws up a whole lot of other issues .

Speaker 2 55:29

Ro Roger doesn't it oh , absolutely For coppers in particular .

Speaker 1 55:33

How do ?

Speaker 3 55:34

you manage that . It's difficult to maintain friendships , I think because our schedules are all over the place . We don't have

Impact of Shift Work Schedules

Speaker 3 55:41

the Monday to Friday 9 to 5 . We get the weekends .

Speaker 2 55:45

No , that's right yeah .

Speaker 3 55:46

In some ways I'm jealous of people that work those kind of schedules , but then also I like having my weekdays off and being able to do things when everyone else is at work . It definitely does put a strain , like there's no two ways about it . It definitely does put a strain on every relationship , on like families , with your partner , your friends . I don't have kids , but it would definitely be difficult with especially small children To manage all that . Yeah .

Speaker 2 56:16

You must work with mums that have got kids . They do night shift go home , sit around , get the kids organised for school , drive the kids to school , go and have a nap , then get up again , go and pick the kids up from school . They've then got them all night . Then they're back to work again , doing 12 hours in ICU . Like you know , this is what people are dealing with at the moment . It's horrendous and I think we need to acknowledge more of the impact it has on people .

Speaker 1 56:42

You say the word horrendous , it is . It's not easy , it's not easy , horrendous , seems inflammatory to me . I mean they're doing the job because it needs to be done . Thank God that they're there to do the job , so I don't want to slam it . It's got to be done . Yeah , yeah . Horrendous , I reckon , is the wrong word . Okay , I thank God , they're there .

Speaker 2 57:04

Oh yeah , no , but I'm talking the impact on them is horrendous .

Speaker 1 57:08

It's a challenge .

Speaker 2 57:10

Okay , yeah , I still say horrendous , because it is horrendous on us physically doing it , mentally , physically it's horrendous , but we can't not have people doing it .

Speaker 2 57:25

Oh no . But my mentor that taught us nutrition just said I've got a solution for you , for shift workers , and that is to tell them not to do it , but for community . We couldn't have that situation and that's my argument straight back to him . How did you get here ? You flew here on a plane , someone was flying it , someone was serving you . If you call triple zero , someone answers the phone Straight away .

Speaker 2 57:49

The police come they're working night shift . The fire brigade , the paramedics We've heard from a medical scientist tonight who's working as well . There will be CT radiographers that are working . There's nurses , people at the airport are working . We need that in society today , so you can't say don't do it . What we do need to do is educate people how to optimise it .

Speaker 1 58:10

And that's the real challenge .

Speaker 2 58:11

And that's the real challenge .

Speaker 1 58:12

And that's the challenge . We'll talk more about that . Plenty of time for your calls as well . If you'd like to join us , you can . Are you happy to hang for another 10 or 15 ? 133693 . 0477 for the text line 0477 693 693 . I'm Tony McManus , hayley Jamieson's here , roger Sutherland , from a healthy shift of a veteran law enforcement officer . What did you get away with ? About four decades in the end , forty years and four days .

Speaker 2 58:36

But who's counting To the day .

Speaker 1 58:39

We'll do this and then come back . Plenty of time for your calls . 133693 . Margaret in WA , good morning to you , or hello to you . It's not quite morning in your part of the world yet , Margaret , Hi , welcome .

Speaker 14 58:52

Yeah , it's still a bit evening here . I am a paramedical services person . I'm retired now , but I did work in one of the major hospitals here in Perth one of the two and I'm a radiographer , or I was a radiographer . I've just retired .

Speaker 1 59:15

After how many years Mark ?

Speaker 14 59:18

You don't want to know . Fifty plus .

Speaker 1 59:21

Oh good girl , Well done you Great work .

Speaker 14 59:24

So I'm old , but the nurses have a ridiculous schedule . The nurses have a ridiculous schedule . They might finish at 11 o'clock at night one night and then they start at 7 o'clock the next morning . Now when I was doing shift work at this major hospital , we finished at midnight and our next shift started at four o'clock in the afternoon . But you know that's what the nurses seem to do . They think , oh yeah , I've got a big break between . But we just had a big , a reasonable break on a daily basis .

Speaker 2 1:00:11

Hayley , how many swing shifts would you do ?

Speaker 1 1:00:12

Stay there , we'll just get Hayley to respond to that .

Speaker 2 1:00:15

Hayley , how many swing shifts would you do ? We call them swing shifts when you work late and start early . So how many swing shifts would you do ?

Speaker 3 1:00:22

So because I work 12 hour shifts , that's not a very common occurrence . I will very , very rarely , maybe only a small handful of times a year , do a night shift . So say , I finish night shift on Thursday morning and I'll be back for a day shift on the Friday .

Speaker 2 1:00:41

Okay , yeah .

Speaker 3 1:00:44

So that very rarely happens , thankfully , and it's normally because I have to work my roster that way . It's like I've done it to myself , not that management's done it to me . I do want to comment on that , though , because I don't know what it's like in different states , but in New South Wales we can sign a contract saying that we want either an eight-hour break or a ten-hour break between shifts .

Speaker 1 1:01:11

So what sort of breaks were you having , Margaret , in between getting back in there ?

Speaker 14 1:01:16

Well , if you're on call , this is different . I can tell you , my shift , the first week of shift sort of situation , was four to midnight for the first seven days , right . Then we had four days off and then we had five days of 8.30 to 5.00 . Then we had two days off , which was sort of like a weekend days off , which was sort of like a weekend . Then we had six days of four to midnight and then we sort of finished after that . But what happened also was that we , if you were on call because we had on call in those days and you had , you must have , according to the award , you must have an eight-hour break .

Speaker 1 1:02:21

Yeah .

Speaker 14 1:02:21

Otherwise you would be the hospital company whatever was obliged to pay you double time for that entire next shift .

Speaker 1 1:02:32

Yeah , which would blow out the costs of which they've all got to be conscious .

Speaker 14 1:02:36

Which made them say well , no , you have an eight-hour break minimum . Well , my 30th . But a lot of nurses in those days would do as I say . I don't know when they started , but they finished at midnight and then would start again at 7 o'clock in the morning .

Speaker 1 1:02:57

Yeah , well , that's crazy , margaret . Do you miss it now that you're in retirement after all those years serving and doing an outstanding job ? No doubt Do you miss it . Do you miss the comradeship and the relationships over those years ?

Speaker 14 1:03:09

Well , technically , unfortunately , even though I'm old , well , I'm still on long service leave , so I technically haven't retired .

Speaker 4 1:03:19

I technically haven't retired . Good girl , well done .

Speaker 1 1:03:22

Yeah well done You're well played too .

Speaker 2 1:03:24

That's well played .

Speaker 14 1:03:27

But I've just let my registration lapse , so I figure I'm now a retired radiographer .

Speaker 2 1:03:32

Well , thank you for all that you've done . I think that's just absolutely incredible .

Speaker 1 1:03:36

What a great call , margaret .

Speaker 2 1:03:37

Thank you for being part of the program those hours you know those changing hours and what that does to family life For the first 30 years that I was in VicPol we used to work seven nights a night shift and we would finish at seven in the morning after seven nights a night shift and we would finish at seven in the morning after seven nights a night shift and have to be back at work at three o'clock in the afternoon on a Sunday oh God Right . So we would do seven nights of 11pm to 7am and we'd finish at 7am on Sunday morning

Night Shift Challenges and Family Impact

Speaker 2 1:04:05

, start work again at 3pm until 11am and some people would do the double quick so that they would then be back again at 7 am the next morning , just to completely stuff your whole cycle up . But now they don't do that , but we did it for 30 years and it was horrendous on a Sunday afternoon working as a health professional , I found it difficult to sleep when I was on call overnight between shifts .

Speaker 1 1:04:32

The on-call calls were emergency situations . The on-call was between an evening shift and a morning shift . It usually is Really tiring .

Speaker 2 1:04:41

Yeah , People who generally work on-call are generally the day shift . So I know in VicPol , if you're on-call overnight you are generally the day shift . That's running . So good luck with your sleep . Yeah , Because there's a subconscious I could get called so you don't rest properly at all .

Speaker 3 1:05:04

Yeah , that's hard I think sleep anxiety is a really big thing for people in shift work . I know I get it a lot when I'm on day shifts because I'm known to turn my alarm off in my sleep .

Speaker 1 1:05:18

Yeah , so it is a thing , sleep anxiety is absolute . It is a thing Terrible .

Speaker 2 1:05:22

Terrible and it only ever happens to people who have got to get up and work in the morning . But my argument to them all is clients that I've coached through this and they always go oh , I can never sleep before day shift . I can never sleep before day shift . And I just say to them have you ever actually slept through your alarm ? And if you did sleep through your alarm , what's the worst possible thing ?

Speaker 1 1:05:45

that could happen . Yeah , and probably not as much as people might think it is . No , that's right .

Speaker 2 1:05:50

And it creates anxiety .

Speaker 1 1:05:56

And on top of this , to do this role , you've got to have a look at the newspapers . You've probably got to look at the news services , find out what there's , so that we've got something to talk about .

Speaker 2 1:06:00

Yeah and no You've got to handle on things .

Speaker 1 1:06:02

Well , hopefully have at least some handle on some of it , not all of it . You can't . No Tone , we've got a quick one with you before the break . Hello Tony .

Speaker 8 1:06:12

How you doing . Yeah , good , I used to work a double shift at Port Douglas , here at Marage .

Speaker 1 1:06:18

Whereabouts Tone . In Alice Springs . In Alice Springs and what did you do there in the Alice ? I worked in the laundry . Well , you know , the people are going to . Pushing sheets and washing sheets and pounds . For how many years did you do that , Tony ? For 10 years . Good work , good work .

Speaker 8 1:06:41

I did double shifts and they put me back down to eight hours a day because they said I was a bum .

Speaker 1 1:06:44

yeah , yeah , did you enjoy it for those years , tony . Yeah , I enjoyed it . Even in the Ellis . You love the Ellis . Yeah , I like the heat . You love the heat , so you went back , and then you went back to Hamilton and Casterdon . I went back to Casterdon . Yeah , well , good on you , tony . Thank you for sharing that story .

Speaker 1 1:07:03

My father died , you see , of course . Oh , tony , that's right , I'd forgotten about that . Always good to have you on the program . Thank you . Off-air caller says how does overnights affect families ? Well , we haven't really touched on that too much , except that there are issues . I don't know that I could do this role overnight . Breakfast was difficult back at 6pm in Perk , working with Millsy in those days , because the kids were little and you'd have to jump into the cop by , say about 8.30 or 9 o'clock at the latest to get up at say 2.30 or 10 to 3 for a brekkie program . I don't know that you could do this program with a young family , for example , but many do , but many do .

Speaker 2 1:07:41

And I won't use the H word , but it's impacting . How much does it impact on your family life ?

Speaker 3 1:07:47

So , just before I answer , that a lot of the mums that I work with and the dads that have young kids actually prefer night shifts . Yes , they do . Yeah , it seems again , I don't know because I don't have children , it's not my experience , but it seems to be a bit easier for them to manage with the kids and they don't particularly have to worry about childcare because the partner's at home .

Speaker 2 1:08:11

Yeah , so that's a particularly have to worry about childcare because the partner's at home .

Speaker 3 1:08:14

It's a good point .

Speaker 2 1:08:15

So that's a that's really important and a way of thinking . Also , it gives them grown-up time with people during the Like . When you're on night shift , you go to work at 7pm and you come home at 7.30 . You don't have to put a child into childcare , you don't have to get them to school and get them home from school . You don't have to do any of that . So it actually makes sense , doesn't it ? Whereas if you are working a day shift , you've got to structure it around when you can pick your child up from school , when you can get them to school . Can Jenny take them ? Can Mary ?

Speaker 3 1:08:49

pick them up for you . Who's going to pick them ?

Speaker 2 1:08:50

up . I've got to sit around and wait . It's very hard . So night shift a lot to plus the dollars too , really helps with the financials .

Speaker 1 1:08:58

Of course it does , and these are conversations , by the way , that families are having right across Australia every day . Yes , they are Every day .

Speaker 2 1:09:05

How to manage these situations Every single day . People are not only you say they're having those conversations , but they're battling through that all the time as well , struggling . It's a constant struggle , roger . So it's not horrendous and it's not a battle .

Speaker 1 1:09:22

It's a struggle , life is a struggle . The grandfather used to say We'll do this . Come back your calls , we'll sneak in a couple before we go 1-double-3-6-9-3 . Back your calls , we'll sneak in a couple before we go . One , double , three , six , nine , three . All things watches , all things horological . Uh , coming up in the next hour . Andrew mccutcheon from time and tired . Thanks for that . Maxi changes from shift time , I mean not getting any sufficient breaks , because he sent a little message saying I'm under fatigue management rules . If I had to do two shift changes I'd lose me track license , because that's a different . There are different rules and regulations about that , as you well know Five hours .

Speaker 2 1:09:55

Yeah , they can only work five hours . Got to have a half hour break , and rightly so , when you're pulling that sort of weight around on the roads too . But it's a benefit for them because if they can master the 25-minute nap , it's so good and it would keep them recharged and going really well . So , yeah , there's whole logbook rules around what they can and can't do , how many days in a row they can work for , how many hours in a row they can work for . Yeah , really interesting .

Speaker 1 1:10:21

Because there was a period of time my recollection is Roger that I seem to recall New South Wales had a major problem some decades ago , 25 years ago , where there were just an enormous amount of fatalities because it was under-regulated , under-regulated , yeah , and yet they drive into Victoria and it was over-regulated or properly regulated or regulated .

Speaker 2 1:10:46

So , yeah , made it really really difficult , and I remember in my early days in VicPol as well , truck drivers used to race to get to the border so that they could get to the unregulated side .

Speaker 1 1:10:57

To maximise their their time .

Speaker 2 1:10:59

Yeah , and they were getting pressure as well from their employers to get to the border by this time so that they could continue on and drop their loads in Sydney and start coming back again . And , you know , just pushing them horrendously .

Speaker 1 1:11:11

Interesting . We have not had one call this morning , which we usually do from drivers . Well , apart from Leo , the great Uber driver , we haven't had any drivers .

Speaker 2 1:11:19

Christian hasn't called us either on his way home .

Speaker 1 1:11:21

Well , Christian might be having an early night .

Speaker 2 1:11:23

With his five children .

Speaker 1 1:11:25

G'day Tony Mack and the team . I love the work . A great topic . I only caught the last five minutes . My beautiful wife has been a nurse midwife for over 30 years . My father was a paramedic over 40 years . My sister a nurse 35 years , with other family members involved in medical fields , the unheralded members of our society . All heroes . They wouldn't change anything for the world . There you go . That's Glenn in .

Speaker 2 1:11:53

Ballarat . Thank you , glenn , that's just outstanding , isn't it a lovely sentiment ? Oh , it is . And what a family .

Speaker 2 1:12:00

Because I , you know we talked about we were the triple zero family as well , because my son's a police call taker , my daughter is a police member , my son is a fire dispatcher , my partner is a fire dispatcher , my partner is a police dispatcher . I was supervising Triple Zero at the time . Does that all like gladden the heart ? Oh God , absolutely it does , because you're still pulling together with a common goal , doing what you're doing . And it was just a great day because it was the first day that we were all working together . It was picked up here because it hit was the first day that we were all working together .

Speaker 2 1:12:33

It was picked up here because it hit the room of fire that we were all going to be working on the same day On 3AW . On 3AW room of fire . Yeah , yeah , somebody called in saying that there's a particular family that's got four members working , not me . I didn't do it and then Channel 7 picked it up and they wanted to run the story and they came round and interviewed all of us on the day and it's just a fantastic story and it was really humbling because we got known as the Triple Zero family . On that day , the Triple Zero family .

Speaker 1 1:13:01

Hayley , do you get a sense , given what you're doing now and hopefully continue to do for a long time , that that becomes an important part of what you do and those relationships that we'll be enduring and part of what you do and those relationships that we'll be enduring ? And the other thing that Roger and I have spoken about the level of gratefulness where people say , look , thank you so much for everything you do like those sorts of texts to acknowledge .

Speaker 1 1:13:24

you know , it's an American thing when they say thank you for your service , which really is annoying , but how important is that feedback ?

Speaker 3 1:13:30

I think I can't speak for every different area , but definitely in emergency and intensive care we cop a lot of crap from people . We get abused verbally , physically .

Speaker 2 1:13:45

Physically . Can you believe that ? I just can't believe that . I know it happens all the time to nurses . So what do you do in that ?

Speaker 1 1:13:52

circumstance .

Speaker 3 1:13:54

They get a jab in the bum Right .

Speaker 1 1:13:58

Excellent , good night . Happy day .

Speaker 3 1:14:00

Happy day .

Speaker 1 1:14:01

Thank you and good night . Thank you and good night . We've got nothing there . I thought we had a couple of calls to go , but Maxie's giving me the wave saying we haven't Petrol alert Q and Hawthorne today . Justine , thank you , we'll get to that very shortly . To all those people sending great texts some parents do overnight shift and it is non-passive and often under difficult circumstances . Thank you , that is very true , maggie , and a lot of other ones there too , that we'll get to . Thank you for all that great feedback . Now enjoy what's the highlights for that we can share with an interstate visitor who's going down to Phillip Island for the first

Phillip Island Visitor Highlights Tour

Speaker 1 1:14:40

time .

Speaker 2 1:14:41

Well , we have to go down and do the walk . We have to go down to the knobbies and go and have a look To where the knobbies Okay , phillip Island , I said the knobbies , anyway and then you have to go on from there to the blowhole . Right Now , what I would highly it's like a tour of the island .

Speaker 1 1:14:59

This is riveting stuff , isn't it ? Yes , Tourism tourism Victoria . The weather's going to be great Tourism WA all the great and penguins . Go on , it'll be great .

Speaker 2 1:15:08

You've got to see the penguins If you haven't lived and you haven't seen the penguins . You know , melissa , my partner hasn't seen the goddamn penguins .

Speaker 1 1:15:15

I can't believe that a Victorian , or , as people call them , the penguins . The penguins , they're fantastic . I haven't seen penguins , so she didn't go as a little brownie or a cub Never bone . I didn't see the penguins , all those years ago . Fantastic , it's lovely to see you . Enjoy your stay and thank you for coming in .

Speaker 3 1:15:33

Thank you for having me .

Speaker 1 1:15:34

Did any of the last hour and a half make any sense at all ?

Speaker 3 1:15:36

Yes , little bits and pieces .

Speaker 1 1:15:39

Congratulations on everything you do in the great little town or city of Port Mac , Port Macquarie . Thank you .

Speaker 3 1:15:46

Did you grow up there ? Yes , born and bred in the area .

Speaker 2 1:15:49

Yeah , Lovely Happy days . Thank you , I've never been to Port Macquarie . Have you been to Port Macquarie Not ?

Speaker 1 1:15:56

too sure that I have . I can't remember being in Port Macquarie . I know we came down a lot of those places . We did many years ago a big promotion for Moomba and we came down in hot air balloons .

Speaker 2 1:16:12

So we may have flown over Port Macquarie in a hot air balloon . Now that's impressive , that's a great story . No , no , don't start me , but Hartley drove from Port Macquarie to Sydney to catch the flight this morning five hours .

Speaker 1 1:16:17

Had a bit of a freak out . So you can't fly out of Port Mac .

Speaker 3 1:16:19

You can , it just costs a lot of money . So it was cheaper for me to drive down pay for parking .

Speaker 1 1:16:25

There you go , surprise , surprise .