Shift Worker Mental Health and Wellbeing

Speaker 1 0:00

It's gonna be a long night . It's gonna be alright on the night shift .

Speaker 2 0:10

You've found another home . I know you're not alone on the night shift . Now for our Perth listeners in particular , let me just reintroduce for you Roger Sutherland . Roger is Roger Roger Roger , veteran law enforcement officer . Roger is Roger Roger Roger , veteran Law Enforcement Officer . How many decades , rog Four , Trying to get it right . Roger coaches shift workers to do amazing things in life . Thrive pretty much Give shift workers more energy to do sort of things . So I'm sure we'll get lots of calls from WA for you , mate . They love outside the shift Things that you do outside the shift . You can have a look at the website That'll give you some background which is simply called A Healthy Shift . Now there will be people listening , particularly in WA , that are fly-in , fly-out , so this is a great opportunity to hear from that sector as well , because that's a different can , if you like , I think , roger .

Speaker 3 1:05

Totally , that's fantastic .

Speaker 2 1:07

So we'll talk about some of that as well . You've been at a seminar . It's called . What was it called ? Man Talk , man Talk , man Talk . What happened at man Talk and how did that go down with people that are not men ? How did you work through that little project ?

Speaker 3 1:22

Yeah , well , it was quite interesting . Welcome , and I just want to say a massive welcome to all of our Perth people . I'm really excited to have the opportunity to speak into Perth and talk to the fly-in fly-outs . I've actually coached a few fly-in fly-out and I also have liaised with a number of fly-in fly-outs . My goodness me , it is brutal what they do .

Speaker 2 1:46

Well it can be . Can be , but it has to be managed .

Speaker 3 1:50

Oh , very much so . It has to be managed . Yeah , very much so .

Speaker 2 1:54

For those that are doing the job and for family life , those that are at home Because they go for two weeks .

Speaker 3 1:59

They come home and they've got to reintegrate back into the family and things like that . Come home and they've got to reintegrate back into the family and things like that . So , yeah , absolutely thrilled to be talking into WA now as well . Mantalk ManTalk was created three or four years ago into the finance industry to open conversations for men to actually communicate about mental health . This was , unfortunately , after one of their own took their own life . Now one of the two major contributing factors for suicide in males is finance and also their job , and unfortunately finance brokers have got both right there because they're dealing with finance . One thing I didn't realize was how involved finance brokers get with their clients and they really do cheer them on , hoping that they're going to get this job , and then , when they don't , they take that personally as well . I don't think people realise just how personally a finance broker does take that .

Speaker 2 3:00

Anyway , but you can probably say the same thing for a lot of sectors . I would imagine , roger , where nurses I would imagine couldn't be as amazing people both men and women , of course that do extraordinary things can't be totally detached ?

Speaker 3 3:15

Oh no , totally , absolutely not . I do know from my own policing experience as well that when you are exposed to traumas or massive events , you do go into this overdrive where you deal with the job and you become emotively uninvolved or unattached . The problem that we do have is afterwards , and I think this is where conversations absolutely have to be opened right up , for people to have these conversations like hey , tone , how are you going , how did you go with that job ? And you go oh yeah , no , I'm right , because we're blokes , you see . So that's how we talk , but I would say you know what it's actually impacted on me ? I've been thinking about it a lot . Then is when you open up and go you know what . I've actually been thinking about this as well and then that conversation opens . You've generally got to ask a man twice , not just once .

Speaker 2 4:05

Many would say more than twice .

Speaker 3 4:06

Well , more than twice . Oh yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 4:09

The point of that is there was a dear dear friend some years ago who said to me and I use it from time to time how are you going ? And they go . Oh yeah , really good , thanks , it's an automatic reaction . And then you say how are you really going ? Yes , and then you say , how are you really going , yes , and then you get down to the DNA .

Speaker 3 4:30

Any psychologist will actually tell you it's the second time you ask and the way you reframe and ask it the second time , that is what makes the huge difference to people . So it's okay , because we do naturally say , oh g'day Tone , how are you going ? Yeah . And then you go , yeah , I'm good , thanks .

Speaker 2 4:42

And particularly and I've talked about this before on here where listeners will ask hello , how ?

Speaker 5 4:48

are you Always .

Speaker 2 4:50

And I'm sure it's part of a speech pattern , by way of introduction . And coming onto a program , a talkback program like this , yes , and I say this with great respect and I've been talking about it for a long time yes , I don't know that . It's actually a genuine inquiry . It's really just a how are you going ? It's an introduction .

Speaker 3 5:08

It's an introduction . Yeah , I totally agree with you there , and if you listen to Talkback Radio it happens to every single caller , every presenter . Every presenter cops it every time . Oh hi Tony , how are you ? Oh , I just wanted to talk about this . It talk about this . It's the hi Tony , how are you ? It's literally the almost the highest breaker .

Speaker 2 5:25

Or in WA it might be Gary in the morning program . G'day Gary . How are you G'day Gary ? How are you G'day Tom ?

Speaker 3 5:31

how are you ? Because , they already know If they're listening to the program . They already know that the person's fine , because they've heard him say 50 times yeah . But you know , it is probably a little bit disingenuous , isn't it really ? And I love that . But the man talk thing , oh , it was just such a thrill to stand up . It was outside of my own normal comfort zone of emergency services .

Speaker 2 5:55

In what way was it uncomfortable ?

Speaker 3 5:58

Well , the last two presentations that I've done have been outside of emergency services . Believe it or not , I've actually thrived in both of them , which gives me a lot of confidence in myself that I'm not just standing talking to a group of cops where I can talk the police language . I've had to adjust it very much , whereas there was a group of orange shirts down at Port Ferry that we spoke about last fortnight .

Speaker 3 6:21

Hang on what the Hang on Orange shirts . Well , I call them orange shirts Like tradies . You know , they wear the orange , the high-vis . I call them orange shirts . I walked into the room and it was a room full of orange shirts and I went oh my goodness me . You know like it's a hard . Even though cops are hard , like they're hard people , that orange shirt just makes them a tradie . You know what I mean .

Speaker 2 6:42

By definition and a mixed age group presumably .

Speaker 3 6:45

Very much so , and majority men on site .

Speaker 2 6:49

Late teens 18 , 19 , 20 .

Speaker 3 6:52

Right through , yes right up to A lot of people that worked at Sun Farmer , which is where I did the presentation in Port Ferry . A lot of people down there were actually sort of been there a long time , so they were older , middle-aged to older Whereas the mental health one that I did on Tuesday at NAB Plaza what a beautiful building that building is NAB Plaza . It's just absolutely beautiful . Anyway , I did to probably 70 or 80 people there , I think for that one as well , maybe even more it was fantastic . It was a lot of men that were finance brokers 80 people there , I think . For that one as well , maybe even more it was fantastic . It was a lot of men that were finance brokers and were very successful men .

Speaker 3 7:31

I heard some incredible stories they get five people to tell their stories about one person that had two separate family members commit suicide in almost identical circumstances at the same house , like father and then son , and he's dealing with that . Everyone's got a story , everyone has a story . Every single person we look at and talk to today has a story , which is why we do need to be a little bit careful with what we say , but anyway , fantastic .

Speaker 2 7:57

We'll take some calls . Come and join us . 133693 . How can we get people to jump on board with you , maybe for the first time now that we're joined by the great listeners through 6PR in Perth ? Yeah , we've talked about the seminar . So questions like , I guess , managing sleep patterns for those that work overnight , for those that fly in , fly out , how do you adjust , how do you come out of that ? And then how do you go back into it for two weeks .

Speaker 3 8:23

Yeah , let's talk about sleep . How do you come out of that ? And then how do you go back into it for a two-week , sometimes a three-week stint . What do they do ? How do they go about their sleep ? Are they medicating ? Do they take melatonin ? Have they got a sleep hygiene practice ? Do they stay awake ? Because generally on the fly-in , fly-outs they do a week of days , then a week of nights and then they come back for two weeks , I think , depending on which business .

Speaker 2 8:46

Well , let's hear about it . What sort of shift patterns have you actually got ? And then you've got to manage things like meal pattern when you're eating , when you're having that sleep and all those considerations which presumably you master , I would have thought in time , or do you no ?

Speaker 3 8:58

a lot of people don't . Because they've got no education , they try to work it for themselves .

Speaker 3 9:02

That's what I'm here for and that's why , on my website , ahealthyshiftcom , I just want to encourage the West Australians to go to the website and have a look . I've got lots of blogs . I've literally got eight free resources that I've put up in the last four weeks there around meal timing , around low-glycemic foods overnight was the one I put up yesterday to really help us with that blood sugar control , hello Jay , so that we don't actually , you know , have to eat those biscuits and everything overnight the TV snacks , the TV snacks .

Speaker 3 9:32

Ah , he's got the box , he's showing us the box .

Speaker 2 9:35

He's got the box of TV snacks . He is a TV A box a day .

Speaker 3 9:38

A box a day ? Yeah , I know , but that's going to catch up with him in time , but he looks like a cigarette .

Speaker 2 9:42

Is he younger ? How ?

Speaker 3 9:43

does he get away with that ? I don't know . He's young and gorge .

Speaker 2 9:46

Yeah , he is , he's a very attractive man .

Speaker 3 9:48

Why don't ?

Speaker 2 9:48

we do this , we'll do this break and then we come back . Roger's here . Roger Sutherland , a healthy shift . We want to hear about your experience A as a shift worker . How do you manage ? Certainly sleep as we go through the night shift eating . And then the other issue , rog , that we'll touch on , I think , is the idea of remaining energised Love it .

Speaker 3 10:14

Yeah , that's really good .

Speaker 2 10:15

How do you ?

Speaker 3 10:16

keep yourself going overnight , Because I've got some theories on this . Now some new theories .

Speaker 2 10:21

If you would like to be part of it , and we certainly hope that you will . While Roger is here , all things to do with shift to workers wherever you are , right across Australia . You could be listening through the Ace Radio Network 5AA in Adelaide , 3aw here in Melbourne , of course , and the great team through 6PR in Perth . 133693 , a shift worker , particularly if you have been or currently fly in , fly out , we'd love to hear from you . 133693 . You'll get through straight away , chrissie . Good morning , but you've never been a shift worker , chris , have you ?

Speaker 7 10:58

No , I've worked a 4pm to midnight shift at Nabisco .

Speaker 2 11:01

Bank . No , that's a shift worker . No , absolutely it is .

Speaker 7 11:06

I find , roger , you understand , not as a worker , but I find that from February 1992 I've been a regular and a character with what was Melbourne Overnight . In 2010 , it became Australia Overnight and then it became more streamlined . I think I've been fighting it for about 14 years that I can't be my natural self because I feel it's a safer option for me at night time now because , particularly since the start of the global pandemic and a lot of people are in a verbal fray and confronting things to each other and loved ones , that I feel it's safer to be on my own and just listening for hours and make a call to Australia overnight and stuff like that , or make a call to my wife , I think for too long I've been not myself a straight victim but mentally ill .

Speaker 7 11:55

People like myself have been victims of a stigma and , like our good community centre in Fitzroy would always institute it into me that we should never make decisions on people based on sufferance we don't identify with . Now that doesn't mean it's poor me and all the traumas , the abuse , the exploitation , all the things that took away my innocence and been in psychiatric wards and institutions . But now I can be more grounded overnight and safe from the elements , but safe from people who don't identify with my sufferings .

Speaker 2 12:30

Chris , as you go through that , who coaches you , who supports you through a lot of those considerations .

Speaker 7 12:37

I've only got my support worker Charlotte now . I deleted one or two support workers recently because I didn't think the $90 billion budget for the NDIS could be Well , let me just get some feedback on that from Roger .

Speaker 3 12:48

Chris , I just want to ask you because you've said that you feel safe and you're up at night , but one of the main contributing factors to the problems that we have with mental health is a dysregulated circadian rhythm . Regulated circadian rhythm and I know you're awake at night and you're up at night , but do you realize the impact that that is actually having on your mental health ? For that , like , I'm not a doctor to talk to you about that , but I do understand that circadian desynchronization impacts massively on mental health , and getting to bed early and having a solid and good night's sleep and then getting that daylight and sunlight during the day will really help you a lot .

Speaker 7 13:29

But it's nothing to look forward to today . It's better to be grounded , without going out and spending money and being blasé . I find I can just be more calm in myself and be happy-go-lucky . I'm still waiting to listen to emergency services with Russ and Russ about quarter to six in the morning .

Speaker 2 13:46

Yeah , it's great . Yeah , we all listen to that , Chris . It's a great call . Thank you for that . We want to move on and get a couple through , Jimmy hello .

Speaker 8 13:55

Good morning Tony , roger and Jay .

Speaker 2 13:58

That's everybody .

Night Shift Challenges and Sleep Disorders

Speaker 2 13:59

Have you been a shift worker over the years , Jim ?

Speaker 8 14:57

Twice I have , once at Bothwick's Me Works , which I don't know . If you'd know what that was . It was a very popular Me Works at Brooklyn when I always used to work on the chain and other jobs . But one day they came up to me and they said we want to change shifts with you and they said we want you to go in the freezers , which I've never worked to do again . It was terrible . I used to work from 8 to 4 in the morning and it was hell in there In the freezer .

Speaker 3 15:29

Pardon , you were in the freezer for 8 hours .

Speaker 8 15:33

In the freezers where they freeze the carcasses and you have to move them in different positions on the chain , put all things in boxes that were frozen . And the other place I worked there was from 4 till 12 afternoon shift was Phoenix Biscuits in Richmond . But what I wanted to ask you , roger , yep , richmond . But what I wanted to ask you , roger , I know a lot of people with insomnia have not much problems staying up and doing their job because they can't sleep because of insomnia . What I'm very curious to find out , because I have both , I've had them for a long time have both , I've had them for a long time Severe sleep apnea and insomnia . I'm wondering have you ever come across any people that have managed to do a shift , work afternoon or night shift with severe sleep apnea without falling asleep ?

Speaker 8 16:33

Or have you known of people attempting to do afternoon or night shift and falling asleep ? Or have you known of people attempting to do afternoon or night shift and falling asleep and getting the sack ? It's a great question . I'll tell you what .

Speaker 3 16:43

I find really interesting about that is generally people who are on afternoons or night shifts . We call that the night owl type of person as well . Right , so they're the night owls . They're the people that if you put them in the middle of nowhere and you said to them , just go to bed , or when you're on holidays , just go to bed and get up at whatever time suits you , they would go to bed at midnight , 1am and get up at 9 , 10am in the morning every day , because that's what they do .

Speaker 3 17:12

And we are learning now that , like with the night owls and also the morning larks , if you take all of them and you put them out in the middle of absolutely nowhere with no electronic devices , everyone falls asleep within about half an hour of each other and everyone wakes up within about half an hour of each other . So the research is now looking deeper into what is it that makes a person a night owl and why is it that they're up so late . And one of the main reasons for this , is believed , is because they're more sensitive to light . So therefore it's that light that is stimulating them . The blue light that's around us everywhere is confusing our circadian rhythm . Now , someone who suffers from sleep apnea only gets that sleep apnea when they're sleeping , and if they're not sleeping so they're not actually suffering from it . That's a very good point .

Speaker 6 18:01

And insomnia .

Speaker 3 18:02

they're not suffering from insomnia if they're awake overnight doing their jobs , but there you would get the insomnia because you're not sleeping properly during the day . But you've got to remember we're a diurnal creature and we're not actually supposed to sleep during the day at all . And that's why I've really changed my thinking around . How do we sleep between nights ? Like you're doing five nights on this , you start on Sunday night , you finish on Friday morning .

Speaker 2 18:28

Well , I call it . I

Shift Worker Perspectives on Sleep

Speaker 2 18:29

never refer to night and that psychologically seems to give it . So it's morning , so I'm doing five mornings .

Speaker 3 18:38

I love that . I never refer to morning . It's a psychological game that you play with yourself too , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 18:41

Yeah , it is Because you go . Well . It's a bit like doing a brekkie program you do it in the morning , You're not doing it at night .

Speaker 3 18:46

No , I agree with that , even though you might arrive there at you're coming in on the morning and the date's always there , whereas I'm still very wired to starting the night before .

Speaker 2 19:01

And even when we're trying to have guests on the program . For example , we put in a request today to talk to the great Paul .

Speaker 3 19:07

Kelly .

Speaker 6 19:09

So he's touring .

Speaker 2 19:10

Yeah , so you put the request in , but you've got to make it very , very clear that we're looking to do it on a Tuesday morning , yes , but we've then got to convert that back to the public and say- .

Speaker 3 19:22

It's actually Monday night . It's Monday night , tuesday morning .

Speaker 2 19:25

So it's a subtle but important distinction , because when people write it in their book , I'm on air- .

Speaker 3 19:30

Tuesday morning .

Speaker 2 19:31

Tuesday . They may think it's Tuesday PM , Right . Now it's a tricky thing to navigate Tuesday pm .

Speaker 4 19:37

Right , it's a tricky thing to navigate .

Speaker 2 19:38

Everybody says you know , people say to me oh , you're working Sunday . No , I don't work Sunday . No , I work Monday morning .

Speaker 3 19:43

Monday morning . Yeah , because you're not actually working any part of Sunday . No , even though the majority of your preparation is done on Sunday .

Speaker 2 19:49

But this is not about me no-transcript as a 40-year former police officer . We'll talk about some of the curiosities too , which is always entertaining and informative by the behaviour that people may experience or do things in the middle of the night . I'm Tony Mack . Roger is here , Roger Sutherland . I keep saying Roger . I don't know why I do that . It's from a movie , I think Roger , Roger , Roger , Roger , Roger .

Speaker 3 20:24

Everyone does it .

Speaker 2 20:24

Yeah , I know , roger the Healthy Shift , 133693 . A couple of quick calls . Darren in Cobden , welcome . How are you Well ? Thank you , there's the first . How are you there ? You go .

Speaker 3 20:38

Say hello to Roger , I'm well , thank you .

Speaker 2 20:41

How are you , Darren ? Thanks , Rog , Good thanks .

Speaker 5 20:44

Yeah , I'm a shift worker .

Speaker 3 20:45

Excellent . What do you ?

Speaker 5 20:46

do ? I work for a dairy company . I've worked shift work for 40 years .

Speaker 3 20:51

Wow , so you started in 1984 , same as I did . Yep , well done , and have you always been in the one job doing that ?

Speaker 5 21:01

Oh , pretty much yeah .

Speaker 3 21:02

Yep . So what is your actual role ? What hours do you do , Darren ?

Speaker 5 21:07

Well , the first 15 years I worked seven-day shift work .

Speaker 3 21:11

Yep .

Speaker 5 21:12

Seven days on , two days off .

Speaker 3 21:14

Yes .

Speaker 5 21:15

Around the clock . Then we started doing 12-hour shifts in near 2000 . Four days on , four days off , and we've been doing that ever since .

Speaker 3 21:26

Darren , what do you prefer ? Eight-hour shifts or 12-hour shifts ? What have you been doing that you actually prefer yourself the 12s . 12s , it's better . Yeah , so you enjoy the 12s . So of course , it cuts us down working more shifts , doesn't it ? And we get in and we get out very quickly . What is it that makes it so attractive ? Like , do you do two days , then two nights , or how do you work it ?

Speaker 5 21:48

No , I do four days from 6am to 6pm . Yes , then I have four days off . Yep , then I have four days off Yep , then I do four days of night shift from 6pm to 6am .

Speaker 3 22:03

How do you feel by the end of that fourth 12 hour day ? You must be exhausted . Yeah , knackered .

Speaker 5 22:08

Day shift's worse .

Speaker 3 22:09

Yes .

Speaker 5 22:11

It is worse . Yeah , you get to . You're just tired all the time . I'll tell you what's kind of funny . Sorry , I love night shift time .

Speaker 3 22:17

I'll tell you what's kind of funny . Sorry , I love night shift . Yeah , I'll tell you what's kind of funny . I did a seminar for an organization who I showed them and broke down their roster and said you know , your circadian rhythms only desynchronize nine days out of 42 . They thought they had the worst roster ever . And when you're on those day shifts it is an ideal circadian aligner for you , so you should be thriving and you only get desynchronised for those four nights . But a lot of people really struggle today with that 4.30 alarm to get up and be at work at 6am in the morning , don't they ?

Speaker 5 22:54

I don't have problems getting up .

Speaker 3 22:56

Yep .

Speaker 5 22:56

It's during the day .

Speaker 3 22:58

Yeah , by the end of the day I work in an area where I work in a control .

Speaker 5 23:01

I've got a control room . Yes , I'm working , and I work by myself .

Speaker 3 23:06

That's tough . Yeah yeah , it's a lonely business , shift work , isn't ? It Can be .

Speaker 5 23:11

Oh , yeah can be . Yeah , I've got other guys that we do work with , but I'm predominantly by myself , probably 95% of the time .

Speaker 3 23:20

Yep , Do you eat overnight , Darren , or do you just try to fast overnight ?

Speaker 5 23:26

or what do you do ? Oh no , I always take a proper meal with me when I come on night shift .

Speaker 3 23:31

Yep , and what sort of time would you ?

Speaker 5 23:37

have that finished by . I have my meal as soon . I start work , pretty much as soon as we do my changeover .

Speaker 3 23:40

Yep .

Speaker 5 23:41

I'll have my meal between six and seven Yep . Then I might just have a bit of fruit through the night .

Speaker 3 23:48

Fantastic , you're nailing it , darren . How do you feel ?

Speaker 5 23:52

Yeah , all right , I've had enough . Yeah , 40 years , I'm going to retire in two years .

Speaker 3 23:56

I hope I'm hearing you . 40 years is more than enough .

Speaker 2 23:59

Just a couple of quick ones from me before we let you go , Darren , and thank you for being part of the program In terms of relationships , because you and I know that there are all sorts of life balances and issues . What's that done , if anything , to relationships during the 40-odd years ?

Speaker 5 24:18

Well , children , things like that . I've seen a lot of things other fathers wouldn't see . Like I get to go . I've gone to a lot of their school concerts Very true Things from the days ago . I'm here to hear the kids read at school on my days off , stuff like that . I've worked a lot of Christmases , but you sort of work around that . But yeah , no , I've never had any problems and the money's good too , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 24:42

And the money's good , the money's good , the money's good , the money's , yeah , really good .

Speaker 5 24:47

And another good thing .

Speaker 3 24:48

I'll tell you what another massive positive is . You can always get an appointment to see someone during the day without any problems at all .

Speaker 2 24:56

There you go , thank you . What a great call . Thank you for being part of it , darren . Star Trek did Captain Kirk battle with circadians ? Maybe he did , just maybe he did . Does Roger know ? This is from Jimmy , who says does Roger know the expression burning the midnight oil ? That's a good point . Jimmy's down in Warrnambool . What wonder what the origins of that burning the midnight oil ? I have no idea .

Speaker 3 25:19

Presumably , Burning the midnight oil , way before electricity . Who was burning the oil ?

Speaker 2 25:22

and why , yeah , and who was responsible . Let us know , jim . Yeah , please do , Doris hi .

Speaker 4 25:30

Hi guys , I wasn't a shift worker , I was a teacher . But I took seven and a half years off when I had kids and I was lucky because I don't watch much TV and I love reading and whenever the kids because I wasn't working if the kids went down during the day , I would actually sleep when the kids would go down Because I think , being a mother , if you're up through the night , if you're working and you're a mother , it's a lot harder .

Speaker 4 25:59

But when I went back to work the boys had started school so it didn't really affect me . And plus I love reading and they say apparently if you're looking down , it automatically starts switching your brain off anyway . So I've never really had trouble sleeping . But when I was lucky enough to take seven and a half years off , I slept when the kids slept . I just feel sorry for the parents .

Speaker 3 26:25

I love this . I love it because mothers are the ultimate shift worker .

Speaker 2 26:29

They are the ultimate shift worker , because they can be , you know , if you've got to get up at 3 o'clock in the morning , so power napping .

Speaker 3 26:34

They are masters of power napping , and they're actually designed to do that too , so they can master power naps .

Speaker 2 26:39

Another consideration to shift workers , wives , families , of course which is a text from 706 . I just can't see that there . But yes , I mean , I think we all agree that the pressures we don't really always hear from mums and kids around this . Obviously they're not up at this time of the morning , the children , but if they were being interviewed I wonder what they would say about mum and or dad working overnight or changing shifts .

Speaker 3 27:06

Mums get up . They're getting up and breastfeeding in the middle of the night , feeding babies and things like that as well . They are the ultimate super humans , mums . Well , we've all come from a mum , so the situation is that they're people who are literally out there disrupting themselves all the time until the children start sleeping through the night .

Speaker 2 27:26

Pete's in Wodonga . Pete , go ahead . Good morning to you .

Speaker 9 27:30

Morning , tony and Rod . Hello Pete . I did shift work for 11 years . What I found when we did the three shift rosters like you're working day , afternoon , night shift and you have weekends off that was okay . But then we went to a four shift roster , which you work on weekends and that , and some days you'd only have one half-day break and then you're back into it again and some days you'd have four days off and I could see it was killing us anyway . And then I just got out of it . Best thing I ever did . What I found people who were doing it when they retired . Five years later they curled up their toes . They're dead , so it wasn't good for their health . So that's one of the main reasons why I got out of it and the best thing I ever did and I feel a lot better . And you didn't get sick or anything after it . You give all that up because you're getting sick all the time .

Speaker 9 28:22

Because your body is chucking your immune system right out and it was shocking for you . Biggest impact you do night shift and you're lucky . If you had four hours sleep for the whole between shifts you'd be doing pretty good and you felt like crap You've raised some really , really good points here .

Speaker 3 28:43

Number one is the immune system and the impact that shift work has on our immune system . Have you noticed that you get sick ? Have you got the sniffles or feel a bit or three yourself since the start of the night ?

Speaker 2 28:54

But I think that's the grace of God .

Speaker 3 28:56

I don't know , that's anything I've done .

Speaker 2 28:58

That's just because I haven't yet , but that's not to say that next month you get crook , so it's just lucky . The thing is I got the COVID when we were on holidays , not while I was working .

Speaker 3 29:09

No well , that's true too , but see , this is the classic for you , See , you fight through on the shifts and then you relax when you're on your leave and then you get sick , which is so typical of people and that's another point that Pete raised as well that people do shift work and then they give the shift work away and then turn their toes up , which is they're really , really struggling . Shift work impacts our immunity enormously through that disrupted circadian alignment .

Speaker 2 29:37

David sends a little note to Tone and Roger , which is probably checked up on the first records burn the midnight oil , love this . Tone and Roger , which is probably checked up on the first records , burn the Midnight Oil , love this . It goes back maybe as far as 1635 . At the time Oil lamps commonplace and the expression refers to needing lamp light in order to see while reading and working late at night . And today , oil lamps , I don't think we use oil lamps anymore . Can you turn your microphone ?

Speaker 6 30:03

on . Yeah , that'll help .

Speaker 3 30:07

How many times have I told you to turn on your microphone ? Well , normally the producer doesn't call . Oh , there you go . Sorry , look at him .

Speaker 2 30:12

Sorry , Anytime you want to speak behind your little microphone over there , Jay , instead of just shaking your hands ? You're more than welcome to jump on .

Speaker 4 30:19

I apologise , sorry , I was scratching my ears .

Speaker 2 30:21

One job Today oil lamps aren't generally that's funny Generally the main source of light , so the expression is used figuratively . Great question G'day Roger and Tone . This is to you , yep , now that you've stopped working as a cop-er after 40 years , what have you done , changed your hours and how are you going about it ?

Speaker 3 30:49

Is there challenges around that ? Yeah , there is . It's really interesting that this is a fantastic question , because we've had callers calling in before that have actually said to us um I , I was a shift worker for so long and I can't get back into sync . I'm going to call them out on that . And there's a reason . And the reason being is because I have focused so hard on getting to bed earlier and getting up earlier and getting that early daylight to reset and re-sync .

Speaker 3 31:11

Now I liken this to someone with jet lag .

Speaker 3 31:15

So when we travel and we go across

Jet Lag and Shift Work Tips

Speaker 3 31:17

time zones now we've been to europe , or you travel backwards and forwards to perth Now we've got a three-hour time difference between Perth and us at the moment .

Speaker 3 31:25

So if you trek back to Perth now , your secret sauce is to get to bed as it gets dark and to get up and get that early light and get moving and eat at those new times . Those three zeitgebers are the three time cues to our circadian rhythm . So getting up , getting thatadian rhythm . So getting up , getting that light . So you're getting the early light which resets the circadian rhythm . You're getting that early movement by moving around and you are eating at the new time zones and your circadian rhythm phase shifts to those times and that's what helps enormously . And this is why some of us struggle going into or through night shifts because we're not eating at a regular time . So my tip to people who are doing or coming out of shift work or people who are actually traveling because we get up and we get moving , we're excited when we get to a new place . We want to go and have a look at what's going on .

Speaker 2 32:22

Yeah , we want to see and we walk a lot , yeah , and going on . Yeah , we want to see you do .

Speaker 3 32:24

And we walk a lot , yeah , and you could lob into .

Speaker 2 32:27

Let's say , you're travelling overseas and you lob there maybe at four o'clock in the morning , yep , yep . You really then don't want to go to bed for six hours . You want to get in and enjoy the occasion and the golden key there is when you arrive at a new place .

Speaker 3 32:42

You want to be arriving at 4 , 5 o'clock in the morning and going all day , and then when you start to get fatigued , it's just to go and have that 20-minute nap so it doesn't impact on that night's sleep , not go to bed and sleep for five hours , which some people do , and then they're up all night and then they go oh damn , jet lag , damn jet lag . You've actually done yourself in by having that longer sleep , just that nap . What do they say ? Do it again ? No , I'm not doing that . It's funny . I had to really process that . It's funny , good impression . My natural reaction was to say something else .

Speaker 2 33:15

A really great impression of somebody suffering from jet lag . Yes , owen in Forest Hill . Hello Owen , welcome to the program . Say hello to Roger .

Speaker 1 33:25

Hello Roger and Tony . Hi Owen . Ironically , I wanted to hear about this topic and I slept through the first half hour .

Speaker 7 33:33

I love that .

Speaker 2 33:35

I think that's fantastic . That's not a bad thing , but you've bounced back .

Speaker 3 33:39

You've had your nap . You've bounced back , though . You've had your nap .

Speaker 1 33:44

You're ready to go ? Yeah , but it's amazing how far you can get with naps and power naps and food and drink . But I was hoping for a return to work . But I'm not taking advice and stick to a day job . And , yeah , it might be best in my situation , maybe because well no , sleep home , it goes crazy .

Speaker 3 34:04

Yeah , situation maybe because , well , no , sleep home , it goes crazy . Well , they do say . I mean , the night shift does make us crazy and the thing is we don't think straight . We have accidents , a lot of accidents . Some of the biggest disasters in the world have happened on night shift . Really , yeah , chernobyl was a night shift , 3 am in the morning 3 am in the morning . Exxon Valdez . Oh , I've done it again . He's called me out on it 3 am in the morning Because I did .

Speaker 2 34:29

There's only one 3 am but in fairness , I did it earlier as well , oh no . So , now we're both .

Speaker 3 34:36

So it's one off for 3 am in the morning had you , rob ?

Speaker 2 34:40

thank you very much . I wish you well with your projects . A couple of other great texts here Decided some years ago to ask the question how are you ? That is a good point , I think . If you go into , I think , pharmacists and people that work in pharmacy , for example and I suspect doctors would learn that pretty early not to ask somebody how they are- it would be a funny question for a doctor .

Speaker 3 35:04

How are you Well ? If I was well , I wouldn't be here , would I ? That's why I'm here to see you .

Speaker 2 35:09

So does a doctor ask you ? And certainly behind the counter at a chemist . They learn to not say how are you , because actually somebody will tell you how they are .

Speaker 3 35:18

I've got a regular doctor . I've got a regular doctor . I go and see Luke , my doctor .

Speaker 2 35:22

It's good to know that your doctor is regular .

Speaker 3 35:26

Yeah , yes it is . But I always , when he walks in and he goes , how are you come in ? And I go and sit down and I say , before we start , I'm going to ask you how you are . How are you ? Yeah ?

Speaker 2 35:39

I do that as well .

Speaker 3 35:40

Yeah , I always say no , I want to know how you are . I do that as well . Yeah , I always say no , I want to know how you are Before you talk about me . I want to know how you are and how are you going . And Dr Luke , he won't listen to this because he'll be asleep , but if he did , he would certainly confirm that . I always make a point to ask the cash register operator that always how are you ? No , really , how are you going ? Yeah , Are you having a good day ?

Speaker 2 36:00

Yeah , and you do this , I know you do I do , and can you imagine being a doctor , for example , who's sitting there and , hopefully , is seeing presumably somewhere around 30 , maybe 40 patients a day ? Yes , you'd be . You know real challenges around that , oh many . And , by the way , not making a lot of money . No , in the current environment . Not making a lot of money and dealing with people who are , for the most part , obviously unwell ? Yes , absolutely . By the time you got out of the office at 5.30 or 6.00 , it would be draining .

Speaker 2 36:31

Now I know it's not shift work , but it would be draining Yep .

Speaker 3 36:35

It's another 24-7 occupation that people have . That because we have doctors working in emergency departments and we have doctors working in hospitals overnight and on call coming in Very , very droning .

Speaker 2 36:50

Let's talk to Leanne . Hello , just a quickie Say hello to Rog .

Speaker 6 36:54

Hi Roger , hi Leanne .

Speaker 4 36:56

Tony .

Speaker 6 36:58

From the age of 18 , I worked bar work . I did that and then when I was working

Shift Work Experiences and Socializing

Speaker 6 37:05

in the 90s , I was working 8 till 4 in the afternoon . I'd go home and go to sleep , go to a nightclub , work 10 till 3 , four nights a week .

Speaker 3 37:17

Incredible .

Speaker 6 37:19

So I was going to work , going home , go to sleep . Going to work , going home , go to sleep . Then on the central coast , I was getting up to do rescue jobs that could go till three in the morning , had to go home , have a shower , have a couple of hours sleep before jumping on a train , six to seven . I think that's why I'm a night owl .

Speaker 3 37:37

Yeah .

Speaker 6 37:39

Very conditioned to it .

Speaker 3 37:41

I think it's something we've got to be really careful of as well . Tone when we talk about shift work is not to think just night shift . We've got to think of anything outside of the normal hours .

Speaker 2 37:52

What's normal hours these days , though .

Speaker 3 38:02

Well , the normal hours for research are considered .

Speaker 2 38:03

anything outside of 8am to 5pm , yeah , but I'm not too sure I know anybody who's only working in this day and age for all perhaps wrong reasons , just working at 9.5 or 8.5 or whatever it might be Hence why nearly 25% of the population are now deemed shift workers . Now that you've got your own drone , roger , you're a happy , happy person . Happy little cherub .

Speaker 3 38:21

I bought a drone . I bought a drone for a hobby and I'm really excited . Can I just give a shout out to the Essendon paramedics , the Essendon AV crew , that are out there driving around tonight . Where was their call ? You were supposed to call in , but anyway , thank you everyone .

Speaker 2 38:35

A healthy shiftcom . Did you have another one ?

Speaker 3 38:38

They said oh yeah , we'll call in one morning yeah , everyone says I'll call in , and they don't .

Speaker 9 38:42

Ever do .

Speaker 3 38:43

No , ever do no , thank you , it's always lovely to see you .

Speaker 2 38:46

See you in a couple of weeks , absolutely , you will . Thank you . Have a look at Roger Sutherland's site . It's simply called .