Shift Work and Circadian Rhythms

Speaker 1 0:00

And now it's all LEDs and what is 99% what's available is static blue rich LEDs , and when I say static I mean they don't change day or night , so you get the same blast of bright blue rich light and that is so disruptive to our health . It's contributing to a growth rapid 4% rise in breast cancer rates per year . It's contributing to prostate cancer and diabetes and obesity . There's a huge human health cost to our ignorance of light .

Speaker 2 0:35

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , Certified Nutritionist , Veteran Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7 Shift Worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers using evidence-based methods to not only survive the rigours of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and wellbeing-being so they have more energy to do the things they love .

Speaker 2 1:07

Enjoy today's show , and today I am absolutely thrilled to have Dr Martin Moore-Ede back onto the podcast . Dr Martin Moore-Ede is known as the light doctor and has released his book with over 250 scientific references in it comment from 240 different scientists in relation to the impact that light is having on us . Do you believe that you can actually work a 24-7 environment without interrupting your circadian rhythm at all ? You better listen to this episode , because this one here is an absolute ripper when it talks all about that particular topic in itself Shift workers . We are learning more and more and more . The research is under a quarter of a century old in relation to this , with significant findings in the last 25 years that are making game-changing situations for us in our shift working environment . So , without much further ado . I'm absolutely delighted to welcome you back to the show , Dr Martin Moore-Ede . How are you , Dr Martin ?

Speaker 1 2:17

Roger , it's a delight to be back with you . You're such an expert in communicating about shift work and it's always good to talk with you .

Speaker 2 2:23

I'm absolutely humbled that you've said that , but your work is incredible . We spoke to you a bit before around about lighting . I wanted to bring you back on . I've got more knowledge myself now that I feel that we need to get out to the public . So just to start off with in a summary , could you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background ? For those that haven't listened to the first episode , Well , I started off as a medical doctor .

Speaker 1 2:51

I qualified in England , went over to Canada where I started a surgical residency . I was going to be a young surgeon in training and during that first year of surgical residency I was working these 36-hour long shifts on your feet for 36 hours , off for 12 for your collapse , and then back in for 36 , and repeating that on a cycle , 100-odd hours a week . And it was all done in retrospect I realized , under blue , rich , fluorescent lights , as the hospitals were all lit . When I was doing it , I got to know about fatigue . I got to know about just the sheer exhaustion , malaise , ill health , the sleepiness nodding off behind the wheel . I came off one of the Canadian freeways in a microsleep . So I got to see all that . And during the process of that I kind of got very interested in what a new phenomenon called circadian rhythms at the time , in other words the body clock and the change of every hormone , every temperature , every function of the body varying around the time of day . Some things peaking in the morning , like cortisol , some things peaking in the middle of night , like melatonin . Alertness is high , body temperature is high during the day . They both fall off at night , and so forth . So I got interested in circadian rhythms .

Speaker 1 4:05

So I took a detour down to Harvard Medical School where I did a PhD studying this very new field . It was so new that the professors warned me to stay away from this field . It wasn't a real science but fortunately I stayed on it . And this was before any clock in any animal had ever been discovered . And during the time I was at Harvard , first of all the circadian clock in the brain of hamsters and rats was first found , and then we went on at Harvard . I then joined there as a professor , was a professor there for 23 years and we're able to show several important things . One is that light was the synchronizer of circadian clocks . It was key was light and dark . Number two , there was a biological synchronizer of circadian clocks . It was key , it was light and dark . Number two , there was a biological clock , a circadian clock , the super charismatic nucleus in the human brain , just like animals , and that when it was disrupted and when the rhythms of the body were disrupted , that resulted in ill health . All sorts of body systems fell apart our immune system , our temperature regulation , all sorts of things fall apart . And over the long term we've learned that all sorts of major medical conditions like obesity , diabetes , heart disease , breast cancer , prostate cancer and so forth are a result from disrupted circadian clocks . I went on then to form a company called Circadian to address the industry of shift workers any business running 24-7 . And Circadian has offices in Australia , in Europe , in North America , in Asia , japan and so forth . Over the years and over a 40-year time as Circadian , we've now worked with over half the Fortune 500 major companies all over the world .

Speaker 1 5:47

And so then what happened was in the year 2000, . Thereabouts some major discoveries started coming in . Number one , three major studies showed that nurses had 50% more breast cancer when they were working the night shift . Three big studies coming out of Europe and elsewhere . Secondly , a pigment was discovered in the eye , photopigment , which is very sensitive to blue , and that in fact the key signal as to whether it's day or night , as to whether our eyes were perceiving blue in the spectrum . And also it became clear that , as a result of that research , that the World Health Organization , by 2007 , had labeled shift work , where you are exposed to light at night , as a carcinogen , as a cancer-producing agent , and that was a big shock . So you have to understand .

Speaker 1 6:47

I was working with many of the major companies around the world BHP , billiton , rio Tinto in Australia , flying Doctors , all sorts of people , general shift work , issues of sleep and fatigue . And they came to me , these big companies , and they said , martin , we've seen , the World Health Organization says that light at night is a carcinogen , but we can't switch off the lights , we can't stop our business , we have to run 24-7 . There's no choice . And at that point I went back to the lab , formed a circadian light research center to really dig into , you know , was there a solution to this thing ? Because clearly , if all light was bad at night , it was a real problem .

Speaker 1 7:29

Fortunately , the blue part of the spectrum was the secret and we were able to show that a very narrow part of blue at the spectrum was around 480 nanometers , which is just a measure of the wavelengths of this blue . It's a sky blue color , which is the key signal that our bodies use as a signal to determine whether it's day or night . If there's blue out there , it's daytime , if there's no blue out there , it's nighttime . It's as simple as that . And this system , interestingly , the origins of this are really fascinating when you dig into it , because when life began , deep in the oceans billions of years ago . Deep in those oceans , sunlight falling on the seawater absorbs all the colors of the rainbow .

Speaker 1 8:17

Now we think of light , white light , yellowish light . There's no such thing as white or yellowish white light . What we see , that's an optical illusion in our brains . What actually is coming out of a light source , whether it's the sun or whether it's a light bulb , is a rainbow of range of colors , from violets to blues to greens , to oranges and reds . All those colors and together our brain puts together and interprets it as white . But it was a narrow part of that blue spectrum , not the deep royal blues , not the aqua type blues , but a sky blue color specifically .

Speaker 1 8:53

That was the clue that then led to saying , ah , we've got our answer .

Speaker 1 8:58

If we can build light bulbs and light fixtures that do not have zero of that blue in the middle of the night , then we can solve this problem .

Speaker 1 9:08

And indeed , when we did that and we designed the LEDs to put the patterns in , licensed it to a lot of major lighting companies . Those lights now is the answer . The answer is the brain needs to see blue during the day , no blue at night . But it doesn't mean you have to switch the lights off , you can have zero blue light . So that was one of the key discoveries . And then , having sold that on so it could be distributed now and now coming out into the market in a range of fixtures , light bulbs and so forth , my current mission is to educate the world about this and this is why we're doing this show , because the problem is people don't understand there's a solution and don't understand the importance of finding zero blue light during the nighttime hours to protect their health . Then no one's going to buy it , the companies won't build it and we're going to have a whole lot of unnecessary ill health . So that's a rather long story , but that's my career path , as you were over the last 40 years .

Speaker 2 10:04

I've done shift work for a long time . I think the key point for us to take is these key discoveries are in the last quarter of a century , in the last 25 years . So if you went back 26 , 27 years ago , we didn't know any of this , and now we understand that there's a link between light and breast cancer . We also understand that it is the sky blue color of the spectrum that actually resets a circadian rhythm and we can't be exposed to . And I must admit I've forgotten the third one . But there was key discoveries and we are learning more and more about this and as time goes by , so we learn more . But these being key discoveries now mean that we can move forward really well with this , with a solid understanding

The Impact of Blue Light Pollution

Speaker 2 10:51

.

Speaker 2 10:51

Now , look , I'm truly blessed because I put this book I'm holding the Light Doctor up now , which is your book that I bought my own copy .

Speaker 2 11:01

You and I swapped a lot of emails around about this in relation to when we were going to be able to get it , and I just jumped and I bought it , and I'm so glad that I have Congratulations on this absolute masterpiece of writing .

Speaker 2 11:14

And I say this because from the first two or three pages , I was absolutely hooked on this book because it was written like my dad sitting there and telling me about it and I know that was your intention because we've actually discussed this over and over again and that is that you know , scientists all know this , they all know it , and all of this information is all set in journals , gathering dust on bookshelves in libraries around the world , and it's no good when it's like that and we need to get the layman understanding so people can campaign about it . It had me until the very last page and I also want to say that for people that think oh , is this just the latest scare tactic ? When you've got 250 scientific references in the back of the book , which are pretty significant , it gives the book a heck of a lot of credibility . Plus , your own journey as well gives it a lot of credibility because you are so passionate about it . How is the book actually going , martin ?

Speaker 1 12:14

Going very well . It's an Amazon bestseller . It's been sold all over the world . I'm getting a lot of great feedback about it . I think I've hit the right level .

Speaker 1 12:22

As you say so well , the scientists know about this . They talk to each other , they have their scientific conferences and all the rest of it . They read the scientific papers . But if the world doesn't know , this is such a practical step because we tend to take all of us historically , and certainly the general public tends to take light for granted hey , just switch on the light switch . What's the big deal right Now ?

Speaker 1 12:46

The whole dialogue about lighting recently has been how to make it cheaper and brighter and more energy efficient , in other words , how to get the maximum brightness for the least use of electricity . And that's been driven by concerns about energy conservation , global warming and all that , and that's all good . But if , in the course , what's happened is we've now had the incandescent light bulbs banned , the halogen light bulbs banned , the fluorescents are on the way out and now it's all LEDs , and what is 99% ? What's available is static , blue-rich LEDs , and when I say static , I mean they don't change day or night , so you get the same blast of bright , blue-rich light day and night and that is so disruptive to our health . It's contributing to a growth rapid 4% rise in breast cancer rates per year . It's contributing to prostate cancer and diabetes and obesity . There's a huge human health cost to our ignorance of light . It's very basic knowledge Blue rich you're going to have during the day . Get outside if you possibly can in the sunlight because that's maximum value blue rich light . If you can't make sure you've got blue rich light indoors , you can use a blue rich enhanced light in the mornings to help you if you use that . But in the evenings you need to avoid the blue part of the spectrum like the plague and you can two ways you do about it . You can buy blue blocking glasses provide you get the right blue blocking glasses to do so , and some of them unfortunately do no good at all because they're blocking the wrong blue .

Speaker 1 14:24

But also , more importantly , changing over your lights and your light sources . And that means light bulbs in your home , the lighting in commercial buildings and hospitals and offices . You know it is unforgivable right now that hospitals are pumping out blue-rich LED light , are pumping out blue-rich LED light . It may be efficient , it may meet all the environmental kudos and awards and all the rest of it , but it is incredibly unhealthy and you are contributing to a 50% or greater risk in cancer in your staff . You're meaning that your patients in the hospital don't get well so fast . In other words , it damaged their immune systems . It is really unforgivable to have now , with the current knowledge , blue rich light in the hospital at night .

Speaker 1 15:14

So this technology is now available . That's the exciting thing , because one side of the book is it's already well telling people about the problem . But if you can't buy it , if you can't find it , then that's a real problem . But now , as I say , it's coming available . It's already launched in the United States and Europe and in Australia . The commercial lighting will come in with that in the beginning of next year , january 2025 . And we already have a number of Australian companies lining up to put these lights in . But that's part of the story . To understand , time is now and , quite frankly , we need to do something to reduce the burden of ill health . Diabetes is climbing , obesity is climbing , cancers are climbing , heart disease is climbing and people are scratching their heads and saying why ? Well , there's a very simple answer Get rid of that blue rich light at night . That would make a huge impact on all those diseases .

Speaker 2 16:10

And it really is that simple . And the book , as Dr Martin Morad has just emphasized . The book tells us what the problem is , but it also provides us with the solutions . And I think it's really exciting that we're only four months away now from 2025 , and we're close to releasing this circadian lighting and we will talk about this a little bit more , because I find this absolutely fascinating that you can have the lighting actually just make that minor adjustment depending on your latitude and longitude , on where you actually are on the planet , which brings it in line properly .

Speaker 2 16:44

So the book has given me so much knowledge now that I want to bring our listeners around the impact of blue light on us actually biologically .

Speaker 2 16:52

Now I understand and I do because I've not researched , but I'm fairly well read on this area now that I understand through reading your work on Substack as well as the book but we have not the optic nerves . We actually have sensors in our eye that register this blue light . That goes through to the optic chiasm , which registers the light , and then it goes to our suprachiasmatic nucleus , which notifies the body that it's light or dark . Now we have to remember our body can't see whether it's light or dark . Now we have to remember . Our body can't see whether it's light or dark . It's literally just that blue spectrum of the light that is triggering we're awake . It's light or it's dark . So I know this is difficult to explain to people , but if there was no blue in the light at all , like if that blue spectrum of 480 nanometers was actually removed out of that white light that we see , our body wouldn't know if it was light or dark .

Speaker 1 17:50

Yeah , the message will be dark . Yeah , the message is it's nighttime . If they can't see any blue , it's nighttime .

Speaker 2 17:55

Yeah , so it doesn't matter about red or yellow or any other color light , it's literally just the blue . So if we take the blue out of the light , then we have a massive , big difference internally into the internal functions in our body . Now , we in society today we talk about putting lighting in workplaces and people will put lighting in their houses , but we're literally polluted by blue light these days , aren't we ? Is that a fair comment ?

Speaker 1 18:21

Yes , absolutely , it's an environmental pollutant . But the good news is , unlike the other environmental pollutants we all worry about , the PFAS , the forever chemicals , all the microplastics or all the other things out there asbestos , ddt , all the rest of it a lot of that stuff is very , very hard to remove . This is so simple Just change the down light bulb . It is so , so simple to get rid of this pollutant . It is so totally unnecessary for us to be living with blue light , with blue containing light and , by the way , I think people also think this is like a police car with flashing blue lights . No , I think it's not visible to us because it's inside the white spectrum . It's inside the white or yellowish light we see . Even if the light looks quite yellow , it may have , you know , a lot of blue in

Blue Light and Circadian Rhythms

Speaker 1 19:13

it . Now , interestingly , our ancestors , before electric light was developed , they used wood fires , they used candles . Those have virtually no blue in them , less than 1% blue in a candle or in a wood fire . So that light . And then Edison invented a light bulb and they look a bit like candlelight for coloring and he made it about 4% blue . So that was about four times more blue than we were evolutionarily used to .

Speaker 1 19:43

But these LEDs today are 15% , 20% blue , sometimes more huge doses of harmful blue . And good during the daytime , no problem during the daytime if you want to see blue , but as soon as the sun sets and you talked about setting this to latitude and longitude these circadian lights are automatic . In other words , when it's daytime , locally they're blue rich light and they automatically switch at dusk . In other words , when the sun sets , the lights change . It's a gradual change A dawn dusk at over half an hour . Yes , the light is a bit yellower , but you really don't notice it , because we made this gradual change from the blue rich light to the blue free , the zero blue light .

Speaker 1 20:27

That's a big change and that's the secret is to basically get these lights and lose no time about it , because we need to do this for our own health , for the health of our children , elderly parents in assisted living , we need to do that for our kids in school . We need to do this and the time is now . The solution is now and there is no excuse whatsoever . In fact , there's going to be huge reliability problems coming up now for people who don't do this , because the evidence is there , the solution is there and it really can't be ignored anymore .

Speaker 2 21:05

If I was running a 24-7 shift working environment where I had , let's just say , something like a call center where people are sitting in there . Now they're all looking at light levels and they do . They work on light levels , but they're not looking or changing the blue and taking the blue out of it . Just to be clear to people , so that we understand as well blue light is not blue colored and you've touched on that , and I think it's important that people understand that . It's still that white light and the problem that we have with our lighting in our homes and our offices is there is insufficient blue light for us to actually reset our circadian rhythm , because we live in what you have termed a twilight zone during the day , because we're in a twilight because there's not enough blue rich light to actually reset our circadian rhythm and provide that blue light letting our body know that it's awake . But that same amount of blue light that's coming in is too much blue light once it goes dark . Can you just explain ? Is that the correct way of putting it ?

Speaker 1 22:07

It is , and I think the one thing we should touch on I think it's good you brought it up is our ancestors lived outdoors most of the time under bright daylight sunlight . So they were under 10,000 lux on a cloudy day , 50,000 to 100,000 lux on a bright you know Australian sunlit day , right , guess what ? We're running around at 200 lux or 300 lux indoors literally twilight . That's why we call it twilight and we keep that level of light day and night indoors . So we really are deprived of light . So one of the key things of this is getting exposed , especially in the mornings , to bright , blue , rich daylight . Get out , take a walk , take a jog , whatever it takes , have your breakfast outside , do something that gets you exposed to that light in the morning . That's very critical because we are light deprived and particularly blue deprived during the day , but at nighttime the reverse is true and we need to get rid of it . And you know you were mentioning , roger , that you know it's hard to tell the difference . Here are two light bulbs , right ?

Speaker 2 23:15

Into the middle .

Speaker 1 23:15

Yeah , perfect , let me just get them on the screen . Yeah , we can see them there . Right , they're two light bulbs .

Speaker 2 23:20

Yes , I do they , yes they do they look identical ? Yes .

Speaker 1 23:22

They're absolutely identical looking , these two light bulbs , but one of these is rich in blue and the other has got zero blue .

Speaker 2 23:34

You can't tell the difference just by looking at them , no , so this is where it's important for people . Now let me just be clear to people , just to break that down even more simply when you lie in bed in the morning and you roll over and you grab your mobile phone and you're looking at it because we're so terrified of blue light , we think , oh , this is the right time to be getting that blue light . But it's not sufficient blue light to reset your circadian rhythm , is it ?

Speaker 1 23:53

No , it isn't . We don't get enough indoors from our screens or from our . You know most of us get about and we talked about lux being a measure and we talked about 50,000 lux outside . Yeah , you're getting about 100 lux at most from a screen and probably less than that .

Speaker 2 24:08

No , so , and that's why I say to people sky before screen every morning , roll over , open your curtain , sit there , look at your window or get your coffee and go and sit on the back doorstep and just look out . You don't have to be looking at the sun , just look out , because the light outside is the blue light that we want . Even on an overcast day it's 10 000 lux of light . Dr martin's just explained that . So just getting your coffee and sitting outside is getting that light , and that's the light that we actually need to be getting . But then we also need , at night , to just completely remove this blue light . Now we say to people oh , just turn your screens off an hour before you go to bed . It really does need to be from sunset , doesn't it .

Speaker 1 24:51

Yes , it does . I think it's the very least it should be . Three hours before bed is the guideline that you should change . But basically , ideally , you change it over around sunset from one mode to the other , and the beauty about the lights that are now available is no compromise . I mean , you can use extremely yellow-orange light to do it , yeah , and that compromises your ability to read , but it does do the trick . But on the other hand , there's now light that's good quality light . You can read , you can do any task hobbies , whatever you're doing , do your tax returns , whatever you're going to do . You need enough light to do that with these new modern lights , because they're only engineering the blue component out , but they keep the rest of the whitish light , and so that's really valuable .

Speaker 2 26:30

The other thing that I want to talk about as well is we don't want to terrify people about blue light , and you've covered this . That people need to get blue light , this rich blue light . And you've covered this . That people need to get blue light , this rich blue light , early part of the day . Up until what sort of time do we know that we need to be getting this blue light before it starts to impact on us ? So is it like , obviously , our caveman ancestors were the people that were getting it from first light to last light ? Is that okay to be getting that blue light during that time , or does it start to impact ?

Speaker 1 26:59

Well , the most important time is in the mornings and that's very clear . I mean , I think there's some fascinating studies looking at patients with admitted to psychiatric hospitals with depression and anxiety , because that's one of the effects of disrupting your circadian clocks . If in a hospital they've done studies with buildings of a hospital where one side all the rooms are facing east and south , in other words they get the morning sun the other side of the corridor all the rooms are facing north and west , guess what ? The patients in the rooms facing east , east and south that get the morning sunlight get out of the hospital in half the time . They're cured in half the time , even though they're on the same medications , the same therapy sessions , the same doctors , same nurses everything is the same , just being exposed to morning light so you can't get outside .

Speaker 1 27:53

Getting close to a window is also an important part of this . But basically that tells you that the morning is a critical time and we know that from the science . The science says the robust resetting or synchronizing our saving clock is largely done in the first part of the morning . And also one another advantage of that is if you stay out of the midday sun , you'll have less risk of skin cancers and other issues . Better to be before the sun hits the peak of its cycle in the sky . In the first half of the morning is the best time to do it .

Speaker 2 28:27

And that's why I say grab your coffee and go and sit on the back deck or go and sit on the back step and just get some light . What would be a reasonable amount of time if I'm going to take my coffee and we go out and wander around the garden ? What would be a reasonable amount of time if I'm going to take my coffee and we go out and wander around the garden ? What would be a reasonable amount of time just to get the sufficient blue light to reset the circadian rhythm on a , let's just say , an overcast day ?

Speaker 1 28:45

Aim for a half hour to an hour if you can . In other words , if you can't do an hour , do a half hour , but you need to get out for at least that amount of time . Certainly , studies show that people are out for an hour very get a robust effect on their health , and so that's the idea . You can do all sorts of things outside . You can have your coffee , you can go for a walk , you can get your exercise in , take the dog out , whatever . Those are all the things , all good things , and the excuse is really just to get exposed to that bright light .

Speaker 2 29:14

What you've said is robust health . As shift workers , we are just self-sacrifices in so many ways , but we have poor immune systems and that's because of circadian misalignment . We have fatigue , chronic fatigue , brain fog . We can't get going , we can't function . Circadian misalignment impacts on us greatly and it's such a simple solution , isn't it Like just light , get that light . Just get up and get that light . So that's one of those things .

Speaker 1 29:41

So we're talking to a shift work audience here . I think we ought to really tackle head on one of the misunderstandings in this area to think well , I'm working night shifts , hence I want to shift myself over to being on night shifts . The problem is , when you do that , you shift over to the night shifts . You then got to shift back again . You're going to be in a constant state of circadian flux . In fact , when we put light and we've done it now in 65 Fortune 500 companies and hospitals where we put the lights on , we've actually done this circadian lighting in our trials and our demonstration projects for over five years now Great results but what we're doing is we're removing the blue at night , even though they're working the night shift and in fact , especially we're working the night shift and what we get then is people are much more alert on that night shift , they have fewer stomach upsets , they're healthier , they sleep better before the shift , the sleep before the shift and the sleep before the shift and the sleep after the shift is better .

Speaker 1 30:40

It really is keeping you stabilized on mother nature time even though you're working those shifts . You can actually compensate . You can work your shifts without having to shift your biological clock . One of the big misunderstandings is people say , oh , let's shine a lot of blue light at night because that would keep people more awake and shift their clocks . Well , that is a disaster , quite frankly . When you do it , it may have a short-term effect . In the lab , you know , in the scientific lab , you can show , oh gosh , I'm getting these great effects , but living that lifestyle , it is highly disruptive , and so the most important thing is to keep your circadian clocks firmly anchored to external , to environmental , to the Earth's day and night . Then your health will be in much better shape and you'll be in good shape for your off-duty days without having a disruption with your family during off-duty days .

Speaker 2 31:35

I hope you're enjoying the show . If you are , please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished . This helps the show's reach enormously . And have you got my free e-book the Best Way to Eat on Night Shift ? Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast , why we should fast and how to best go about it . I've even included a few recipes to help you . I've put a link to the ebook in the show notes .

Speaker 2 32:02

And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next ? Well , I've got you . If you would like to work with me , I can coach you to thrive not just survive while undertaking the rigors of 24-7 shift work . Survive while undertaking the rigors of 24-7 shift work . I also conduct in-house live health and wellbeing seminars , where I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence-based information to help your wellbeing team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace . I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned . You can find me at ahealthyshiftcom or on Instagram at a underscore healthy , underscore shift . Now let's get back to the show . That is the catch of the podcast so far , because I think this is really important , so that people understand that we have lighting available to us now . That does not disrupt your circadian rhythm at all . Even though you are up and you are working night shift and you are seeing light . It is not disrupting your circadian rhythm . That's the statement , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 33:14

That's right , exactly . That's the scientific breakthrough , that's the major breakthrough , understanding that really has revolutionized shift work and really been used in Europe , been used in North America widely , and now , as I say , we're bringing that into Australia .

Speaker 2 33:29

Incredible . So this phase shifting for people to phase shift into night shift , phase shift out of night shift , adjust your circadian rhythm , we can put that in the bin . We are learning that quickly now that we can actually put this phase shifting into the bin , obviously in an area that we have circadian style lighting , which now needs to be every 24-7 environment , because this is important it's easy for people to think now what's the point ? I can put circadian lighting at home , but my office hasn't got it , so it's easy for people to give up on that . But there's still enormous benefit for people , even just in their homes , to have circadian lighting , regardless of what it's like out there . Because

Blue Light and Health Impact

Speaker 2 34:11

I guess you know , here in Australia , martin , we actually have government incentive programs with door knockers coming around knocking on doors , offering to change our lights to these static blue pump LED lights . I'm sure it's the same in the US . It's insane .

Speaker 1 34:29

It is absolutely insane . Yeah , I know it is crazy , like they're coming around and peddling ill health . Yes , correct , and yes , you've got to save a little bit on the electric utility bill . Yes , it might help the fewer greenhouse gases but , quite frankly , if you save the planet but harm human health in a major way , that's not really a game . The whole idea is healthy humans on the planet , not just a healthy planet , totally agree .

Speaker 2 34:55

If someone came and knocked on your door and offered you a 50% chance of cancer , you would slam the door and tell them to go away , but you'll take their light and put it in there because it might save you a few dollars on your bill . Keep that in mind , people , because this is literally what we're doing at the moment and it's really , really important Now . We must avoid blue light at night . We haven't covered yet why we need to actually avoid blue light at night , and I would love to do this because , from having read the book , it's the blue light alone that inhibits the production of melatonin by our pineal gland , because obviously it gets the signal and melatonin . Now , I misunderstood melatonin . I actually thought melatonin and I'll be honest with you here I thought melatonin was a hormone that was like a sedative to the body . Here we go , melatonin's up , we're going to sleep , and I think this is the common perception by a lot of people but melatonin can you just explain to us what the importance of melatonin is to us biologically ? What does it do ?

Speaker 1 35:58

Absolutely Well . You're quite right to bring this out . Melatonin has been labeled , even by doctors , as the sleep hormone , and it's not the sleep hormone . It tends to occur in humans during sleep , but that is only a correlation , it's not a cause . In fact , what melatonin is , as blue light is detected by these receptors in the eye , the blue light detectors , they go into the clock and from the circadian clock , the suprachiasmatic nucleus , clock pathways go to the pineal gland that then release melatonin and melatonin perfuses distributed all the way through the bloodstream , through all the cells of the body . It is telling the body that it is dark outside . It is the darkness signal , it's the darkness hormone . So it's basically and why do you need that ? Well , that tells the body to get into the rest , recovery , restore repair mode , clean up the cancer cells , and melatonin suppresses cancer . That's why it's so important to have high levels of melatonin . If you see blue light during the day , that enhances your melatonin at night , any blue light during the night hours suppresses the melatonin .

Speaker 1 37:09

Guess what ? What happens is the body cells of the body are confused . It's not time for repair , recovery , it's not time for good sleep , it's not time for suppressing cancer and , in fact , cancer cells grow more regularly . We become pre-diabetic . In fact , you know again that guy's going around and peddling light bulbs that are you know these static blue rich LEDs is selling you . Double the risk of obesity , double the risk of heart disease and cancer . It's doubling your risk in so many ways and it's all because it is suppressing the melatonin you get removed .

Speaker 1 37:49

The darkness signal . The repairing process of the body don't work . We age more rapidly and people who are exposed to light at night die sooner . That now is very clear , takes years off your life because of the various diseases and ill health conditions that it causes . So if you look at people who've lived , who spent a lot of time outdoors during the day and sleep in the dark at night , they live years longer and these are big studies with 29,000 , 88,000 people in the huge studies now proving this . So it's good for your healthy lifespan to make sure that you're getting that signal of blue during the day and no blue at night .

Speaker 2 38:28

Incredible . We agree that blue light is the issue at night . We've talked about that , we've backed over it plenty of times . But one of the questions that I wanted to ask , which has been raised a number of times by people through my social media , is can you sufficiently light an operating theater , which requires really bright light ? Obviously you're a surgeon , or you're a surgeon in your time when you were telling us that you were nodding off and fatigued , so this would be something that you , as a doctor , would have literally looked at . So you know , can we light our workplaces ? Can we light an operating theater sufficiently to be able to see ?

Speaker 1 39:05

Absolutely . The brightness of the light is actually determined by the yellow wavelengths in the light . Remember that light spectrum . It's not determined by the blue . So , basically , whether it's blue there or not , it's not going to have any big effect on the brightness . And you can adjust , you can make these light sources as bright as you want , provided , as I say , that there's no blue in them in the evening hours . That's not a function of the brightness . Brightness is determined , as I say , by different colors in the light spectrum than the blue .

Speaker 2 39:36

Amazing . So we can literally light our hospitals , our homes , our workplaces and not disrupt our circadian rhythm at all , depending on where we are in the latitude and longitude of the world . I think that's the catch of the whole thing , and also it's really , really important that we understand this , that workplaces today understand that they are being negligent with the light that they're providing in the workplace .

Speaker 1 40:04

That's right . I mean it is ignorance right now , and our job and my mission with the book the Light Doctor is to provide something that any nurse , any doctor , anybody working in a hospital can take to the administration , can take to the department , or anybody working in any other shift worker any other workplace can take to their boss . We find that why do people change lights ? Well , in fact , if you can show and it is proven and the book shows the evidence that alertness and productivity is going to be increased , errors are going to be reduced , right , and quite frankly , those errors in the hospital cost , medication errors is a huge issue , hugely expensive issue in hospitals . You can show that patients get better sooner . But it's a matter of education . Once you get the WIFMs , you sell the WIFMs . What's a WIFM ? What's in it for me , right ? So you've got to get to the psyche of the person you're talking to . What's in it for me , right ? So you've got to get to the psyche of the person you're talking to . What's in it for them If it's a manager or an art facility , you know , lowered absenteeism , lowered staff turnover , improved productivity . That's what you sell . I mean they don't care so much . They should care , but not so much about the health of the people , unless it turns into sick leave , so you use their language and that's the WFMs . For other people , if you're in a hospital , you're looking at patient recovery times and all sorts of other metrics . But basically this book is aimed to help give you the WFMs to use as part of their education and so that anybody who seriously wants to understand it .

Speaker 1 41:39

And what we find is , once they get it , then they will say yes , we've got to specify . That's the light we've got to specify here and just the routine rough guide . By the way , the design specs to ask for in a light source Does it produce more than 20% blue content during the day ? You need that and does it produce less than 2% blue content ? In other words , how much blue content compared to all the visible light is there ? If it's less than 2% , then that probably is going to be safe for nighttime use . Use those specs . You'll find most regular LEDs hawking on the shelves and selling you . Most of these things are no way meet those specs , either for night or day .

Speaker 2 42:24

No , so they make it damaging . So I can see , or I can envisage in the future that lighting will come with a warning on it , which people are going to go . What now ? Is it lighting but we don't realise ? We're all looking for the answer to why it is that we have an obesity crisis , why it is we have a mental health crisis , why it is that people are so unhealthy and have such metabolic issues in the world . And there's a direct correlation between when this lighting became blue-rich , blue-p pump LEDs isn't there , like it's , the health issues of the world . There's a direct correlation between the two .

Speaker 1 43:03

Absolutely . And you know people say to me well , is this just Dr Maureen , and he's got a couple of crackpot ideas here . Well , number one I recite a huge literature of about 10,000 papers in this field , of the work that's been done , and I give you a whole insight into those . But number two is I conducted a consensus survey of 250 of the world's leading scientists in this area and they came up with a number of conclusions they agreed on on the basis of what I've written in the book . But they did come out with say that , for example , lights that are used in the evening and night should be as zero blue in content . And they also said , very interestingly , they mentioned warning labels that the standard static LED light that you go into the hardware store and buy that light bulb should carry a warning label on it may be harmful if used at night .

Speaker 2 43:58

And it's an oxymoron , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 44:00

Crazy , right ? Yeah , we're saying this stuff may be harmful to use at night . So basically you know , and we put warning labels on other things , but this is a huge issue .

Speaker 2 44:09

Well , the more I've read , the more terrified and I wrote that in my actual Amazon review . It's a terrifying book , but it's an important book

The Importance of Circadian Lighting

Speaker 2 44:16

for people to read , but it does provide a lot of answers and I noted that so many times . I would look away and I would think that makes sense for this and that makes sense for that and that makes sense for this , and I think a lot of it all comes together in my mind in relation to it . Now , one of the things that's really important , I think , is please forgive me for the pronouncement it's a photospectrometer . Photospectrometer , is that right ?

Speaker 1 44:43

Yes , a spectrophotometer . Okay , that's a device that can actually measure all the wavelengths , but that's a technical advice and that's going to set you back sometimes a thousand bucks or more . That's complicated , but there is another alternative , in that you can use a diffraction lens . This one happens to be mounted in spectacles and when you look at a light with this diffraction lens , you can actually see all the colors of the rainbow and you can see whether it contains blue or not , and so one of the things I'm going to be putting in copies as a bonus in my copies of my book is a little monocle with this diffraction lens where you can actually use to look at a light and judge without you know for free , as it were , whether this light contains this harmful blue or not . So that , at least , is something you can do as a first approximation . Of course , if you want to measure it precisely , you're going to need one of these handheld spectrophotometers .

Speaker 2 45:40

Yeah , but I think it's really , really important that people understand just to go over that , because I think Martin and I knew exactly what we were talking about there . This is a device that actually measures the light that you're looking at and the blue in it , and you can see the peak of blue . The question that I'm asking is is there a cheap way that we can work out without having to spend $1,000 on one of those in our house or our workplace , because we need to be armed with knowing what we're talking about with the blue light ? I think that's important . What Martin's just showed us is a pair of cardboard lenses . Now , martin , I've got to be honest with you . I actually went off and researched these after one of your posts . I had a look at them . I didn't realize , but they're actually worn at rave parties .

Speaker 1 46:26

Yeah , there are ones . You get crazy light fixtures . What you need is a plane diffraction lens . It's a very simple little sheet of plastic with grooves in it that converts light into the colors of the rainbow and you can diagnose what is in your light bulb or what's coming out of your light fixture .

Speaker 2 46:43

If you were working night shift you could pop a pair of those on and then you could put an Ock Health and Safety report in , saying I'm being exposed to blue light here .

Speaker 1 46:53

Absolutely .

Speaker 2 46:54

Yep , that is crazy . We need to get those out . We need to distribute those goddamn everywhere so that people can actually just pop them on , pass them around and then , literally , because I know in Australia for WorkSafe , if you start putting these observation reports in , they have to do something about it . Anyway , we'll talk about that after this , because I honestly believe that if we do a presentation and I was to hand the glasses out and people could look at how much blue light they're being exposed to at night , I think they'd be terrified and especially armed with the knowledge that we're going to arm them with around health impacts that this blue light actually has . So this is how we bring awareness . I honestly believe it's actually a cheap option . We don't go peddling the light at this point . What we do is we show them the blue light and tell them the science . That's why the Light Doctor is such a great book , because it talks about all of this .

Speaker 2 47:47

Obviously , I've just covered one way . But what do you see ? You're obviously thinking about those things all the time . What can we , as the employee , do to bring awareness to our employer of this Russian roulette that they're actually playing with the staff ? As I said before , we are now expanding . We've gone from nine to five , monday to Friday , to then open Thursday night in shops in retail , then to Saturday morning and then to Saturday afternoon . Then it was Sundays , but now we've got 24-7 operating workspaces where we've just opened up more , pushed more people into this 24-7 environment . How does an employee really bring awareness to employers around that they have to do something about this because of the risk ?

Speaker 1 48:33

I think , number one , getting the word out and educating . Number two , as you say , if we can actually show that the content of light that's being used and educate people about this with using the diffraction glasses or diffraction monocle , we've got a monocle coming out which is even easier , a handheld device you can just put up to the eye . So , yes , those are the sort of things and , I think , making sure you're speaking the language of the people you're talking to . But the evidence is just overwhelming and , as I say , for ill health and the benefits , on the one hand , of the ill health associated with the static LED lights and the benefits which are now demonstrated for the lights that change the circadian lighting rich in blue during the day , depleted in blue at night .

Speaker 2 49:18

Let's just take a call center for argument's sake . That's got probably I don't know 100 people sitting in it . In a call center that's got this lighting over the top . Is it an expensive process to replace to circadian lighting in an area like that , to light it the way it needs to be ?

Speaker 1 49:34

Well , it's somewhat more expensive because it's new and obviously not produced in massive volume . It's somewhat more expensive . You can buy cheap bright lights right and out of Asia and everywhere else , and so these lights are . Those prices are coming down into more reasonable ranges now . It's not hugely expensive to do it , and certainly in terms of the value , because what you're doing is you're measuring your lighting for people rather than lighting for rooms , right I mean ? In other words , why don't we put light in places , not just to light the room , it's the light . The people is way more important in terms of their function , their ability , their productivity , their creativity , their alertness , their health . All that is so much more important than just just putting light to make a room look pretty .

Speaker 2 50:22

You did touch on this before but you've got many because you've set up Circadian , the company You've installed Circadian lighting into workplaces in I think you said probably more now , but it was 65 of the Fortune 500 companies , big companies . We're not talking just Johnny's hardware store on the corner , we're talking massive , massive companies that have invested big income into these lighting into the workplaces . Can you discuss just some of the stats around how it's improved ? It's one thing to say people are better and

Blue Light Impact on Shift Workers

Speaker 2 50:53

blah , blah , blah . Statistically , how much better is it ?

Speaker 1 50:57

There really are big effects . What we're getting is a reduction in . One of the very interesting things is people are , when they're on the night shift , tend to snack and that leads to weight gain . Guess what ? They feel less hungry on the night shift under zero blue lights , because blue stimulates your appetite . They eat half the number of snacks . So that was a big finding we found . Consistently we found that reduction of people's sleepiness on the job has gone way down . They're much more alert 100% more alert at five o'clock in the morning , one of the hardest times to stay alert , but they're sleeping better when they're off the job . We're finding big reductions in the number of operator errors . Now we've shown that in the lab and then we've shown that in the workplace . So people in very safety-sensitive control room-type operations a big reduction in the number of operator errors . We talked about improved sleep and quality . Gastrointestinal disorders the number of people who upset stomachs . That's reduced by 20% , 30% . So we've got big changes and benefits with the people as we do these .

Speaker 2 52:04

That's just incredible . Once again , people , this is all due to zero circadian disruption , because there is no blue light in the lighting that you're seeing at night , so your circadian rhythm is still functioning exactly as it should be functioning , instead of getting this light at night . And then you get more hungry , so you eat more , so it gives you more gastrointestinal distress . Then it has metabolic issues on you because your system's shut down , so you're on insulin resistance and the complications are enormous in relation to this , and the complications are enormous in relation to this . Now , in your book you actually refer to the retimer light , and I've got one here that I would like to just put on . I'm just going to pop this on here , like this , which we talk about blue light , but this here provides the green , really yellowy light which I can show , can show you here . Well , you probably can't really see it there like that , but yeah , it's got the greeny light . What's the benefit of a device like this for a shift worker in particular , or someone suffering from jet lag ?

Speaker 1 53:12

well the early work I've seen the retimer do , because it does contain a blue component to the light . It's got blue in that light is that when you use it in the evening hours it shifts you later . It moves you . In the morning hours it shifts you earlier , so it has a biological effect on the circadian rhythm . Now you want to be careful there because you could get yourself pretty screwed up .

Speaker 1 53:33

As I say , you really don't want to see blue light in the evening hours . So putting that thing on in the evening hours would do exactly the wrong thing . Now in the morning , as you're getting , if you don't have access to the outdoors , then I think that could be a useful stimulus to actually provide a boost to the circadian system in the morning . That's probably the most effective time when you want to see blue light . You know , unless you're going to fly to Australia , to Europe or something like that and want to adjust , then there could be a place then in jet lag treatment . But for the regular shift worker , you don't want to mess with your orientation day and night . You really don't want to see that blue . So those lights , those retirement glasses , are really going to be . It's a morning treatment , it's not an evening treatment .

Speaker 2 54:21

While I say to people sky before screen , sky before screen all the time , I also am very cognizant of the fact that a lot of people come back to me and say to me , oh , but it's dark when I get up and I can't get that light . I can't do that . And you know we do have a lot of nurses in particular and people that work in call centers that would go from getting up in the darkness to then getting ready , showering under this , as you said , less than 20% blue light in the morning , then driving to work in the darkness , then going to work and being in this less than 20% blue light during the day in their hospitals or call centers or wherever they are not actually getting the light . And I just see this retimer as a way to get 20 to 30 minutes of solid blue-green light in so that you are getting some form of daylight into reset . Your circadian rhythm anticipates that reset , doesn't it ? So it needs to respond to that reset .

Speaker 1 55:23

Yeah , now one of the groups that's very sensitive to this is teenagers , right , in other words , they tend to late teens , they tend to stay up late , they get really sleep deprived , they have a hard time getting going in the mornings .

Speaker 1 55:36

And there have been some very nice studies showing that if you give teenagers zero blue light or use blue blocking glasses in the evenings and then in the mornings you give them a dose of blue from either something like a retimer or a blue reducing light tablet , then in fact they sleep better , they feel healthier , their mood is better but their math scores go way up , which is really interesting . And in fact , the studies this is done by Harvard Medical School Hospital , mclean Hospital here in Boston . They did MRIs and showed the brain connectivity , the functions of the brain functioning together , was much stronger under that treatment . So basically , that just again reinforces if we control our how much blue we get , when we get it , and do it on a regular , reliable schedule , it has big boosts to our mental health , to our physical health , to our alertness and performance and cognition , and so that's really the heart of this . It's not a very complex message .

Speaker 2 56:36

we've just got to go and get the tools to make this happen and then we need people to pack some punch to actually push it up the line , and I think that's the important thing , because it's the employee that's being impacted massively around this , because , I've got to be honest with you , the majority of the management they're home in bed at night , aren't they ? In those shift working environments ?

Speaker 1 56:56

They often are . That's right , exactly .

Speaker 2 56:58

Yeah , so it's the employee that needs to be pushing it up the line to get the management to do something about it .

Speaker 2 57:04

I'm so grateful for your time and your knowledge , and not only that , but we as a collective of shift workers would absolutely . We are so grateful to you for the work that you're doing in this area , showing us the way as shift workers , because in the past , research on shift workers has all been done with no education . There's been very limited research , or the research that has been done has been done on shift workers without the education . I'm here to relay your message to people and get these messages out so that people understand that they can actually thrive in these 24-7 working environments . And there are ways , but we are self-sabotaging by the things that are going on . So thank you for your work in that area . It's timeless , it's ours . I'm sure you've spent many nights and many days in the research lab doing it , putting your own health at risk for the health of others as well , and it's very , very selfless what you actually do . And thank you , martin .

Speaker 1 58:04

Well , thank you , roger , and I really appreciate the role you're playing in getting the word out , because you're communicating as a shift worker to fellow shift workers and you've got the real experience . What really matters . When you talk about managers , there's a night and day difference between a manager who has , at some point in their career , work shifts versus one that never has Big difference . So shift workers need to communicate the special situation and what you're doing is really important and I'm glad to be partnering with you to get this word out about the importance of controlling the blue content of the light we see .

Speaker 2 58:42

And we must do it . Martin , do you have anything exciting that you would like to share with our listeners that's coming up ? Tell us something exciting that's groundbreaking in research . Go on .

Speaker 1 58:51

Well , the research is really fascinating . We're learning more and more about the other colors in the light spectrum , more and more about the other colors in the light spectrum . We're learning that you know we mentioned now . You know white light is made up of the violets , the blues , the greens , the yellows , oranges , reds , but you know each individual wavelength has a role . It's almost every part

The Power of Light for Health

Speaker 1 59:13

of the light spectrum is part of health . So we're finding that green light is curing migraines , for example , amazingly , and also having this really calming effect .

Speaker 1 59:23

Getting out in a really green leafy environment with all that green reflected light in the mornings great way to get green light but it does have a big effect on migraines .

Speaker 1 59:32

We know red light is really healing and we know that it heals scars and we know that it has healing effects . So we're learning that all those colors and the wonderful thing Mother Nature gave us sunlight which is rich in plenty of every one of those spectra all of which are critical for health . We're just beginning to understand this whole picture . So we understand the blue for circadian , we understand the green for pain mitigation and the red for healing , and we're getting to understand that that's the really big , exciting breakthrough . And not to mention the technology and the products that are now coming out . For example , there will be a kickstarter just coming out , another news item in september for screens computer screens that now will do the same thing take away the blue . I'll be talking about that in some of my posts fairly soon and already accumulating names of people that are interested in being on the list for that Kickstarter campaign because that technology is already developed in prototype . So that's an exciting thing . That's happening too .

Speaker 2 1:00:36

That's another thing that you've discussed in the book here too , martin , and that is that you've discussed all of the different light spectrums and the health benefits that come with each of those . Like with the ultraviolet that we see that it actually kills off bacteria . There's a bit of it . I don't know what it's like in the US at the moment , but here in Australia the infrared saunas have become massive and people are putting them into their own homes for the therapeutic benefit of the red light . The bottom line here is get out and get the sun . That's the bottom line , isn't it ? Really Get out early in the day .

Speaker 1 1:01:13

It's free , it's coming from the sky .

Speaker 2 1:01:15

You don't go to the supplement store to buy some sunshine . You actually just step outside and walk around for 30 minutes in the sun and you have got everything that you need . And I think in a lot of the blue zones that we have blue zones as well the sunlight is the key , isn't it ? They're outside , they're gathering their own foods , they're doing their own things , but sunlight is the key Incredible . I won't ask you where people can find you , because I'm actually going to put it into the show notes , because there's a list of places that you're very active on On the Instagram I think that's one of the important ones is circadianlightdoctor .

Speaker 2 1:01:49

I do share your posts because I just find it all so fascinating as well , but you're on Twitter and YouTube and everywhere else and you do feature . I think people should actually search for Dr Martin Moore-Ede on podcasts so that they can listen to more of this sort of content . Thank you so , so much for coming onto the show and sharing this knowledge with us . Again , I will link to the book in the show notes so that people are able to get a copy . It's gone to the top of my list because I think it's such an easy fix . I just can't get over how much of an easy fix it is . So thanks , martin .

Speaker 1 1:02:24

Thank you , roger , I appreciate it .

Speaker 2 1:02:25

And there you have it . That's Dr Martin Moore-Ede . It's terrifying , isn't it Like really what we're doing to ourselves with blue light these days and not being able to see it , and how harmful it actually is to it . I won't back over all of it , but I just want to go over a few points in particular , and that is in 2024 and beyond . We can now sufficiently light everywhere that we need to work without disrupting our circadian rhythm by just removing the blue spectrum of light out of it , out of the white light , and it still provides us with what is a very white light with just a slight tinge on it now , whereas instead of this yellow that we get the perception of , once the blue's gone , it's all yellow . These lights have been actually made so that they provide almost a white light . It's fascinating .

Speaker 2 1:03:22

So there you have it . You've heard it first here from the expert . We need to not disrupt our circadian rhythm . What we need to do is we need to just adjust the lighting in our environment so it doesn't disrupt it . You heard it here first , and this is how I am so passionate and absolutely love to speak to these people and learn more and more about how I can help you to optimize your shift working life so that you can thrive and not just survive , and there you will have more energy to do the things that you love outside of your shift working life . Now . Thank you for listening .

Speaker 2 1:04:04

If you got anything out of this podcast , please , please , share this . Be an ambassador in your workplace to get the lighting changed . It is literally an occult and safety risk . Now Share this with your employer . Share it with your employees , share this with your employer , share it with your employees , share it with people around you . Make people aware of it . That's the only way we can do it and that's why this podcast I got Dr Martin Moore-Eback so that we can get this out there to make sure that these 24-7 shift working environments are changing these lights .

Speaker 2 1:04:37

It's that simple . It'll reduce the hunger , it'll reduce the snacking , it will reduce metabolic issues , but increase everything around that . You'll live a biologically healthy life while you're still doing shift work . Never thought it was possible , did you ? But it actually is . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to ahealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one . Thank you .