Supporting First Responders' Mental Health

Speaker 1 0:00

There are organisations and sites that keep track of reported suicides of first responders and there is the really awful statistic at the moment that more first responders in all of like you know dispatchers , firefighters , police officers , paramedics , emts , ems they're losing more to suicide than line-of-duty deaths .

Speaker 2 0:31

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to A Healthy Shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified Nutritionist , veteran Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7 Shift Worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers using evidence-based methods to not only survive the rigours of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and wellbeing so they have more energy to do the things they love .

Speaker 2 0:58

Enjoy today's show and welcome to another episode of a Healthy Shift podcast your podcast , our podcast where I help you with evidence-based strategies around shift work . Today I have a former police officer and a detective from a state police force in Australia who now currently lives in Boston in the USA . Now she's a certified life coach for first responders and also for emergency services members , and she's a wife to an American firefighter and former crisis counsellor on a suicide hotline . I'm going to bring to you Erin Nugent today from Erin Jane Coaching . Now Erin is one of these people who just has the most fantastic story to tell . So she's coaching people in just basic life coaching around emergency services , first responders , frontline health , et cetera anyone like that and she goes through a number of strategies with people to literally help them when they get to the stage where they're absolutely buckled . So in today's podcast , what we discussed was the benefits of first responders talking about their experiences and I think this is important , so it doesn't haunt them , it's always good to get it off their chest the difference between coaching and therapy , because there's a massive difference there , and also the challenges that couples and relationships face when one or both are a first responder . Now , mental health statistics is something else that we discuss .

Speaker 2 2:29

She's got her own podcast , which is I Will Hold Space for your Darkness , which we will talk about as well . There's also a massive affiliation from Erin with the Overwatch Collective . Now you've heard from Greg Grogan , and Greg is the president of the first Overwatch Collective and Erin is also very , very supportive in that community as well . Without much further ado , let's get on with this show . It's not a short podcast , it's quite long , but it's just a really frank , open and honest chat between what may very well have been ex-colleagues , erin Nugent from Erin Jane Coaching with us today . How are you , erin ?

Speaker 1 3:06

I'm good , Roger . Thank you for having me .

Speaker 2 3:08

Oh , my goodness me , have you got a story , and I can't wait for our listeners to hear the story . I have actually had a little stalk of some of your podcasts and you've got the best story ever , so .

Speaker 1 3:19

I want people to hear it .

Speaker 2 3:21

It's great . So let's just tell our listeners actually who you are , because this is going to be all about mental health and talking about mental health and coaching around mental health today , which to say it's topical at the moment would be an understatement , wouldn't it ?

Speaker 1 3:34

Yes , this is very true . So I am a 39-year-old mom of two little boys . I'm originally from Melbourne in Australia and I currently live in Boston , massachusetts . I'm married to a firefighter who is a captain over here , with 22 years experience , I think , on the job . Yeah , I was a police officer and a detective from Victoria and he was a firefighter from Boston , and we both happened to be traveling through Europe at the same time from Boston , and we both happened to be traveling through Europe at the same time , and we were both in Berlin in Germany and we met and nine months later we got married and yeah , rest is kind of history .

Speaker 2 4:16

That's fantastic . So basically , what we're alluding to here is that you were wandering around Berlin in Germany , and here was this bloke waving a firefighter's calendar in front of you , and you just went . Oh my God , hello .

Speaker 1 4:30

Well , somewhat . So I was actually traveling with a fellow detective at the time , one of my very , very close friends , one of my bridesmaids actually at the wedding , and it had been a long day . We did a walking tour of Berlin , it was fantastic , and we ended up at a bar and we ended up at another bar and it was one of those evenings and we ended up we collated this like picnic bench table sort of thing of all of these English speaking people from the tour and other places . So you know , we had like a couple of Irish blokes and a couple of English blokes and whatever else . And my girlfriend went inside to get a drink and came back out with these like two very tall , very attractive , like men kind of wandering behind her and she was like , oh , erin , I met these two guys . They're American . And I was like , oh , okay , and then she kind of stood behind them and she was like they're firefighters .

Speaker 2 5:17

Of course she did .

Speaker 1 5:19

And so one of them , my future husband , and the other one still a very good friend and one of the godparents of one of our children .

Speaker 2 5:27

So what a great story . I absolutely love that story because , ladies , if you're out there listening and you happen to buy the firefighter calendar every year , it could still happen . It could still happen . Just go and sit in a bar and collect people . If you're in a foreign country , just go and collect people .

Speaker 1 5:45

You never know , you might end up with a firefighter .

Speaker 2 5:47

Works for me All right Now , erin , you were in the police in Australia and you've now met your dream man , who's a firefighter , of course . And how on earth did Erin end up in Boston , in Massachusetts , like you could not be further possibly away from home ?

Speaker 1 6:05

Oh , honestly , yeah , it's probably one of the furthest places that I could have definitely gone . He's from here , he's born and bred , so I say Boston because it's kind of just easier for people to know . But yeah , of course we actually are in Cambridge so sort of where , like Harvard , mit , all that sort of stuff . Obviously , as our relationship progressed needed to figure out whose country or where we were going to spend some time together . Our actual sort of first proper date was like two weeks in Hawaii , because that's exactly halfway . It was rather a whirlwind and if someone came to me now going like trying to tell me the exact same story , I'd be like you're crazy , what are you doing ? But I tend to follow my heart a little more than maybe most people . Big sacrifice to leave mum leave're crazy , what are you doing ? But I tend to follow my heart a little more than maybe most people .

Speaker 2 6:46

Big sacrifice to leave mum , leave the nest and travel so far away , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 6:52

I'd been in a previous relationship where there was the possibility that , you know , I think , he was going to get work in Sydney and I was like , oh my God , like I can't move to Sydney . So I actually took long service leave so we got like met and married in nine months and then he came back over here and then about three or four months later I came over here for sort of six months just to kind of , yeah , get a feel for the place . Honestly , we hadn't really made any massive decisions about where we would end up or anything like that . We just knew we wanted to be together and we would sort of figure it out along the ways we went , ways we went .

Speaker 1 7:23

He's a bit older than me . There's a 15 year age gap and then he's the youngest of five , so his parents are a lot more elderly than mine and so it kind of came down to that . Like when we met , his dad was still alive and had end-stage Parkinson's and he was helping to care for his dad . So that was kind of part of you know the reasoning . And his mum's 93 and we live in the same house as her and we help look after her . It's a collective effort with a few of his siblings . But we're sort of just boots on the ground . So family's important to him and it's important to me too . But it was also we knew we wanted to have kids . So for him to kind of come over to Australia if I was the main earner but then I was going to go off and all that kind of thing , so I don't know it just kind of made sense .

Speaker 2 8:09

Great story . It really is such a good story because you've got nothing to lose ? Yeah , but if Erin Nugent came to you and said to you , hey , this is what I'm going to do , you'd give her a smack upside the head , wouldn't you ? And you'd say what are you doing ? You're crazy filled , you can't do that . But you know , there's a few cases like this that really work out well . And the bottom line is , if it didn't work out well , you've got a home to come back to .

Speaker 1 8:32

Well , and that was kind of my thinking , and I'm sort of that sort of person where I'm like I would rather have loved and lost than never have tried or never have wondered . I had a significant heartbreak , like a few years before that and you know , my whole life imploded , and so I had already kind of known what the worst case possibility was , sort of thing . So it was kind of like , well , I'll at least try , and instead of just always wondering what happened to that great bloke I met in Berlin one time .

Speaker 2 8:59

Love this for you , and now you don't have to wonder .

Speaker 1 9:02

Yeah , like 10 years , two kids later , and , if anything like now , I have two amazing places to call my home . I have Melbourne and we have Boston and we have people who we love and who love us adorn the world . We're so fortunate for that . So how cool do you get home often ?

Speaker 2 9:18

Yeah , so you're home now , aren't you ? Really , you can call it home now . Do you get to Melbourne ?

Speaker 1 9:23

often I mean I think Australia is . I still call Australia home . I cry every time I hear that song .

Speaker 2 9:29

You still sound like an Aussie , so you can get away with that .

Speaker 1 9:31

Mate , I'd expect someone to slap me out the head if I didn't . Let's be honest .

Speaker 2 9:34

Fair call .

Speaker 1 9:35

Yeah , so every year we come home for generally anywhere between six to eight weeks , obviously , obviously , during COVID we couldn't come home for like three years and that was rough . The last time I'd been home I had my second child about five months , six months in my belly , and then the next time I came back I'm like , hey , here's my two and a half year old .

Speaker 2 9:55

Oh , of course , because of COVID . Yes .

Speaker 1 9:57

Yeah , so that was interesting .

Speaker 2 9:59

But it's so good today , though , isn't it ? With FaceTiming and your video , when the kids can chat and talk and do whatever , you're not really missing out on anything other than that physical side of it , so that's a great story . I love it . As you said , you've got two homes . There's still hope for anybody out there . You single ladies that are out there travel around . Keep your eyes and ears open . You just never , ever know , do you ? You could end up in Boston with a firefighter .

Speaker 1 10:25

Living the dream . Not my firefighter , but find your own .

Speaker 2 10:26

No , not yours , god . No , hands off . Hands off Erin's firefighter . That's the story .

Career Progression in Law Enforcement

Speaker 2 10:32

You've talked about your time in the police before you got actually taken away from that by your damn firefighter . So what's your background and experience in policing yourself there ? So you obviously joined , and what did you actually do and what caused you to leave ?

Speaker 1 10:46

Yeah , I was early 20s when I joined . I was about 19 when I was like I think this is what I want to do and I decided that I was probably a bit too young . I thought I'd give myself two years , I'll be 21 . If I still feel passionately about it , then then that's what I'm going to do . And I did so .

Speaker 1 11:03

I sort of started the process , went through , you know , the initial interview , fitness , psych tests , all that kind of fun stuff .

Speaker 1 11:11

And , yeah , I got through the process and entered the academy . I think I was 22 maybe , and at that time it was five months in the academy and then you did sort of like two , two and a half years out as a probationary constable and you did a diploma of public safety and policing was part of your education . And then you went back to the academy and still learn more law and all that kind of thing . So , yeah , you learn all of the law that you needed to know to be able to . You know conduct your duties . You know like communication skills , defensive tactics , all that kind of stuff , obviously how to handle and shoot a firearm , which I hadn't sort of had any experience until I entered the police force . I started off as general duties , like everyone does , and I originally kind of went in thinking that I would want to do some kind of socket sex crimes kind of thing . Maybe I watched a little bit too much SVU as I was growing up , Olivia .

Speaker 2 12:01

Benton , she's quite the role model . Oh , I'm learning to be a surgeon . At the moment I'm watching Grey's Anatomy , so I'm going to be a surgeon .

Speaker 1 12:08

Oh , there you go . But kind of once I got in and at that point it wasn't soccer , it was soccer so it was sexual offences , child against child abuse unit or something like that . It was a little bit sort of different . And you know , we had a soccer unit at the police station I was really originally stationed at and I kind of also got to speak to some members and I was a bit like , eh , not really tickling my funny bone as much as I thought it would . And then I ended up making a couple of great friends there who were sort of more in like the detective track and I really just learnt so much from them in terms of just basic things like how to write a narrative on like a crime report . It happened between this time and day . It was like a house on the Northern side of the road facing South . All of those like little like minute details and all that kind of thing and just sort of that really sort of set me on that kind of path .

Speaker 1 12:54

I really wanted to go down that career trajectory . Back when I was general duties they had these things called an emborner task force , did like local sort of armed robberies and stuff like that and I kind of always thought that would be kind of cool . And anyway , you got to go through a few steps to be able to become a detective . So it was kind of just about , yeah , trying to get like lots of briefs of evidence , arrest lots of crooks . You know , I did my first sort of temporary duties .

Speaker 1 13:19

I did was on this thing called like a bird crew , so you just would spend three months playing clothes , working with actual detectives and you investigate , yeah , like burglaries , sort of like that high crime volume , all that sort of stuff . And then , yeah , I sort of really enjoyed that and I think , like being a cop , I had sort of done a job that was a lot of shift work before that too , and my mum's always done shift work . So that was kind of just what , what I knew , what I was really comfortable with and what I really enjoyed . Because you know what I liked being able to have a day off on a Wednesday and go to the shops instead of trying to do everything on like the weekend like every other person . I always really just thrived in that sort of environment were you prepared for shift work ?

Speaker 1 13:57

like the night shifts were different . I hadn't actually done like night shifts , I'd done sort of more almost like afternoon sort of twilight shifts , if anything . So , adjusting to that kind of process of doing like seven nights straight and how that we used to do night shifts , that took like a little adjustment , I think mainly because I thought I needed more sleep than I really did . I was like , well , no like , and I actually just found like working out a lot on night shift . I was going to eat at night time , eating really light , like I'd always make soup and have just kind of soup or something to eat overnight , but nothing much , because I just feel like there'd be people wanting to have these like massive meals at four o'clock in the morning . I'm like , I know this is when I'm up and I'm existing , I'm like , but I just don't feel like that's great for my body and I'm not interested in that at all .

Speaker 1 14:42

I think relatively and being young definitely helped , like if I was trying to start it now I'd be like oof , and you know I didn't have any children , I didn't have any other responsibilities , so definitely sort of it was fine , yeah . So then I applied to like a divisional tasking unit which is 12 months of kind of plainclothes work , more extended investigations , you know doing like search warrants , and lots and lots of crop houses . Any of my friends who know me well know I cannot stand the smell of marijuana because I spent 12 months reeking of it from doing it at work .

Speaker 2 15:16

We've just come back from Canada . We were in Canada for all of October . Cannot stand the smell of marijuana . It's everywhere .

Speaker 1 15:23

Dude , it's the same here , because it's legal here , like in my state at least yeah , it's legal in canada as well oh my god .

Speaker 2 15:29

If there's one reason why you shouldn't legalize cannabis is because it just makes the community stink .

Speaker 1 15:36

I mean , yeah , like I , you know , no judgment for anyone who wants to let you do you mate , but I'm just like , oh it , just it reads and it's probably . I literally just have like some not to make light of ptsd , but I'm like I just have like such connotations attached to it .

Speaker 2 15:53

I'm just like yeah , but I know why . I think from your perspective and from mine as well , you've seen where it comes from in the houses that it's made in , and that bong water , oh that smell that's in the carpet in people's houses , and that you never get that out ever I've definitely been into my fair share of like clan labs , so that powders and pills definitely gross me out more than like something that comes from a plant , but I'm still just like get that away from me .

Speaker 2 16:21

But yeah , I know . Yeah , you've then progressed on . You've spent some time at the DTU .

Career Transition and Crisis Counseling

Speaker 2 16:26

Where did you sort of finish up ?

Speaker 1 16:28

So I did the FIC , which is field investigator's course , which you have to do before you can go and do temps as a detective . So we ended up , instead of doing so , you have either divisional criminal investigation units or you have a place called the crime department . It just ended up that someone from the crime department wanted to come and get some Sergeant upgrading , so a position opened up . So there was just like a direct swap between him and I , so he had a position at the drug task force within the crime department . So I went and did six months temps there .

Speaker 1 17:00

Honestly , like when I got my detective spot and I got it at like my dream place , I'm like I'm never having another panel interview ever again . I'm like this sucks . When I'm nervous I talk a million miles an hour and it's just no good for me . So I was so excited when I got a position . So you get just a position at the crime department and then you don't find out for like a few weeks where you land . You put in your preferences I ended up getting . It was the Armed Crime Task Force at the time which I think changed its name to back to squad . I know there's been a few variations over the years , but basically their purview was armed robberies , non-fatal shootings , kidnappings and aggravated burglaries of like a serious nature In policing .

Speaker 2 17:45

It's probably one of the most elite areas to go to in the crime department , isn't it ? Armed Crime Task .

Speaker 1 17:51

Force yeah .

Speaker 2 17:52

It used to be the major crime back in many , many years ago . I'm pretty sure it used to be major crime .

Speaker 1 17:56

Maybe , I'm not sure . Yeah , it could have been , I don't know .

Speaker 2 18:00

to be perfectly honest , what I also understand they used to be just called the robbers .

Speaker 2 18:12

It was like I work at the robbers , that's right At the robbers and their functions were the best functions of the year every time , but at the Metro . But anyway , we won't talk about that , We'll move on . They've sort of kiboshed all of that which . I want to talk about those sort of things as well , because I think this is one of the biggest problems that we actually have today . That's your background in the policing , so you're very , very well-rounded , Erin in working in squads , working in uniform , working in task forces . You know , you've been in all sorts of places . You've had a really good look at it . How long ago did you actually leave the police ?

Speaker 1 18:42

It's a good question . I think it's been about eight years now .

Speaker 2 18:45

Do you miss it ?

Speaker 1 18:46

That's a good question and it's something I get asked a lot . I miss people . I miss some of the people . I met some incredible people along that journey and people that I respected . And I didn't have the longest of careers of , obviously , what I could have , you know , it got kind of cut short , but it was also at a point where I had gotten to the stage that I had always wanted to . Like I didn't have any desires to be a sergeant or anything like that Like I knew I wanted to be a detective . I got to an incredible squad so I was kind of like you know what I can leave and actually be really happy and really proud of what I've accomplished in that time . So I walked away with a good feeling in regards to that . Yeah great .

Speaker 1 19:24

And yeah , so I think it's yeah , probably been about eight years now .

Speaker 2 19:28

I think Fantastic . So , and just to be clear , didn't leave for any other reason other than to chase some goddamn firefighter . That's right , isn't ?

Speaker 1 19:36

it . I know , yeah , exactly , you know I was offered like leave without pay and all that kind of thing , and my inspector at the time was quite lovely and I kept sort of giving him reasons and he just wouldn't accept my resignation . He was like , nah , that's not good enough . And it took me about three days and I got a little exasperated with him and I was obviously very respectful towards him normally . So I was just like I just went look , I'm like if I don't resign , I'm going to feel like I have this hanging over me when I'm trying to start a new life . And he was like that's the answer . I was cause I was going oh , I don't want to hold up a position , I don't want to do this . And then he's just like no , like I want to hear about what it is for you , like why is this important to you ?

Speaker 2 20:29

think that's really good . What led you to doing what you're actually doing today ? And we'll get to what you're actually doing today but what led you to actually landing with Erin Jane Coaching ?

Speaker 1 20:39

Like a little bit of just quick background . So when I first came over here , I'm not one to kind of sit idly and so I originally couldn't work here because it takes time for you to get a visa and a green card and all that kind of stuff . So I actually found a volunteer opportunity at a suicide prevention and crisis counseling organization . So that was something that I like volunteered as just answering phones and texts and all that kind of thing to people in crisis . Basically they hired me once my approval to work and my permit was all sorted . So I worked for them for a couple of years and that was really worthwhile work and then Can I just stop you there just for one second .

Speaker 2 21:22

Do you think your career in policing really helped that , or did it make you a bit more cynical towards people ? Because I mean , you were at a major crime squad , right , and you're now back taking calls from suicidal people . Do you think that helped you ? Your career in policing actually helped you to deal with that , or did it make you a little bit more ? I'll go through the motions here , but Jesus , get a life .

Speaker 1 22:39

No , no , not at all . I don't think I've ever kind of been that person . I mean , we can always get a bit like the frequent flyers , or frequent callers as we call them .

Speaker 2 22:47

Yes .

Speaker 1 22:57

So for me personally , I lost my dad to suicide when I was a young child , so I think I've always held that in a particular place of reverence , because I do know the impact that a loss like that can have on all of the people surrounding that person who makes that choice . So it was something that I always respected and and I think it just honestly like being a cop , like it really makes you be able to be calm in a crisis and I think that's something that I will always be so incredibly thankful for . It's like one of the main things I got out of my career and I feel like my husband's still in that , so he's very much like that and good in a crisis . But even like now , it's really funny . Like if something kind of happens like I just can kind of you know , something happens with all my kids or something like that , like I can just kind of switch into work mode , it is just like this full on mask and I can like handle it . I'm like boom , boom , boom and it's like and then I can get emotional or fall apart or whatever like after the fact .

Speaker 1 23:54

So I think being able to talk to someone who's like I've got a knife , I've got a gun , I'm going to kill myself , blah , blah , blah , blah blah . It allowed me to become . You know , when other people at my kind of raise those adrenaline levels a little bit and even , as I said , like when I went through the interview process , they're like how will you feel if someone threatens suicide ? And then you know they hang up and you don't know what happens . And I went honestly , like unless I have to go and like find the body , I'm like which I've had to do , I'm like pretty sure I'm good , like I can compartmentalize .

Speaker 1 24:24

I can separate , I can do whatever it is that you need .

Speaker 2 24:26

Yeah , I think our job does teach us a lot of that . I think it teaches us slow down time and we go into those processes . But that's also dangerous for a lot of first responders as well , because first responders can go into that work mode , do that job and then they get the next task , go on to the next task and then go through that motion again and then put that in the shoebox , put it on the shelf and then get the next job and go on to the next job and you can literally be going from a major family violence incident with children involved . Next minute you've got a suicide that you've got to go and deal with . Next minute you've got you know , Mrs Tibbins' cat's up in the tree , it's stuck and you've got to help them to get it down .

Speaker 2 25:07

We just go from one thing to the next , Don't get the opportunity to really flush it all out , and this is the problem that we have . So , anyway , sorry , I cut you off that we have . So , anyway , sorry , I cut you off . So you were working with the crisis line . You got yourself a full-time job once , your green card and everything was all approved . What happened then ?

Speaker 1 25:22

I was never working full-time with them , mainly kind of just like part-time , just as like a supervisor , and helping interview prospective volunteers and all that kind of thing . And I did night shifts while I was pregnant with my first child because that was where the need was . They didn't have an overnight supervisor , so I would just do like two or three night shifts a week with my big belly and I think I went back to work for like a couple of months after I had my first . But kind of just trying to remember what happened , I think they lost some funding and just kind of time to sort of walk away for a bit . And I'm not necessarily in the American mindset where I feel the need to rush back to work after I've had a baby . So I was happy to stay home and raise our kids and we ended up having , yeah , two boys , and that's the way it played out .

Speaker 2 26:07

Okay , so you are now currently life coaching first responders . Can you just define for us what do you define as a first responder ?

Speaker 1 26:16

For me I sort of like encompass it first responder , emergency services member , frontline worker , so I think really anyone sort of that's answering that sort of triple O call . So I'm thinking police , firefighters , paramedics , you know very inclusive of dispatchers , because I think that dispatchers are often , you know , part of the forgotten realm of a first responder and they're kind of the front line . They're the first ones taking those calls and stuff . So I never want to forget them . I think correctional workers who were there , you know , day in , day out , Front line health .

Speaker 2 26:54

What about nurses , doctors ?

Speaker 1 26:56

Yeah , nurses , doctors , anyone like that . Like you know , my experience is obviously certain . You know policing and firefighters in terms of what I've had more contact with . But yeah , my husband's family is just populated by nurses , so I'm surrounded by a lot of them . Yeah , of course .

Speaker 2 27:10

Nurses and firefighters , of course , and I do . I genuinely love that you've actually included and , melissa , I know you're going to be listening to this , so I'm actually going to throw this in because , melissa , my partner is actually a police dispatcher . So what I want to do is I think it's really important because I know firsthand one of the biggest problems is the call takers are taking the calls . It's very different in the US . I know that because the police take all the calls and dispatch , and I think our police take the calls and then I'm sure that dispatchers give the job out . One of the biggest problems that they have is how personally involved they get . They get to know these people out on the road . They get to know these members and when they give them these jobs , they feel so goddamn helpless . And then when something happens and members either come up urgently or they come up where they're in a position where they're not sure what the hell's going on , it can be quite traumatic on them .

Speaker 1 28:02

Oh , 100% . And also from what I've been told . You know , speaking with some dispatchers too , it's like the lack of resolution on their end . So it can be this really chaotic job to begin with , and everyone's go , go , go and then they just hear nothing . They don't hear what happened and there's no closure for them , and I think that can be really really challenging too .

Speaker 2 28:24

No , I totally agree with that and that's something that does need addressing , because I know , particularly in police , as you know and you'll know from your own history , that you attend a critical incident , like , let's just say , you're going to go and like when you were at crime , you'd go and do a warrant , so you'd have a briefing . Everyone understands exactly what's happening . There's the briefing . This is the plan , this is the layout , this is who's going with who . This is what's happening . Right bang , we go and do the job . You go through the premises , you process the punters having a debrief back at the office . What meal claims are we claiming ? No , I'm joking .

Speaker 1 28:58

Only slightly .

Speaker 2 29:05

But you have a debrief where you know if you're involving things , like you know , the SOG or CERT teams or uniformed members . Everyone's in the one room where there's a debrief and they have a debrief and they walk away , but where's the ESTA dispatchers or where are the dispatchers , the emergency dispatchers ? They've got no idea what happened . And also another thing that happens when an incident arises is they end up over on other channels and they've got no idea . They lose complete touch , even though it's happening in their area . They use complete touch . I just wanted to touch on that because I love that you raised the dispatchers and I don't want the dispatchers to be forgotten in relation to that

Life Coaching for First Responders

Speaker 2 29:35

. They're not trained monkeys that just have to do that . They dispatches to be forgotten in relation to that . They're not trained monkeys that just have to do that . They are literally in a position where they do take a lot on board and I think we underestimate how important the information is that they're actually getting out of really difficult situations .

Speaker 1 29:48

So I actually applied for a 911 call take a job here many moons ago now and actually got the position and it just wasn't the right time with our family dynamic going on . But like I had to go into the tests and all that kind of thing . I went through like the whole process . But even when I was a member back home , like it was that a-holes who didn't have an appreciation of like how critical it was , and it's like they are multitasking to like the nth degree . It's like they might be on the phone to the victim , they're trying to look up locations , they're trying to tell you which like they do so much and I actually have , yeah , like a friend who works in it now back home , yep , I think it is very underappreciated and I think that's a real shame .

Speaker 2 30:31

It is a big shame and I think because the police used to have it up until 1995 when it changed and was privatised . Yeah , for the first five or six years , even 10 years , massive issues with a private company doing it . But I think it's become a bit more team orientated now . It's not so much a them and them type situation now . It's all working a lot more together and a lot more trust and I think there's a lot more going on there . Anyway , we're not here to talk about that . What we are here to talk about , we could talk about that for hours , but you're currently life coaching first responders . What does that involve for you now ? Like , how long have you been doing that ? What does it involve ?

Speaker 1 31:07

After I had my second child and he was maybe 12 , 18 months old and I'm just like , what am I going to do with like the rest of my career ? You know , like I was sort of how old was I ? Maybe 35 , 36 . And I obviously , you know , I love staying at home and looking after my kids , but I also want to lead by example and I love to be challenged and I love to learn . So I knew I wanted to do something and look sort of like psychology counselling has sort of always been subject I've been really interested in . Even sort of back when I was in high school it was something that I considered doing , but obviously , knowing like the amount of schooling that's involved and you know , haha , long , long story short , I actually am in schooling now , studying psychology and counseling , but that's still going to be a while off .

Speaker 1 31:57

I sort of was looking into other options going oh you know , do I go back and keep , you know , volunteering or working at a you know the suicide prevention place , stuff like that , and then I really just miss helping people , but because of my husband's schedule . So so firefighters in America do two 24 hour shifts a week and it's a rotating schedule , so he doesn't work the same days of the week every single week . The way that I look at it , like trying to juggle his schedule and my kids and me to kind of have like a typical job , I'm like I'm going to be a terrible employee , like that's , and we don't have a lot of kind of help to facilitate late , you know , with our children over here . So I'm like , well , if I work for myself , you know , then I get to dictate the hours , I get to spend the time with my family when I want to , when I get to work when I want to , and that was sort of something that really motivated me and I came across like a actual therapist . Friend was like , have you ever had a life coaching ? Like that might be up your alley , sort of thing . So I did a bit of a deep dive and I really just fell in love with the sound of it . So it's definitely not therapy . It's obviously , you know , different level of education and schooling involved . I did like a two tiered level course with a organization that's affiliated with the International Coaching Federation , cause if I'm going to do something , I'm going to do it right .

Speaker 1 33:13

And coaching is really more about developing a partnership between you and your client and it's focusing on sort of the present and the future , as opposed to therapy , which sort of does a little bit maybe more in the past depending on the modality of the therapist but it's really more just like giving someone a place to go to come and talk to someone , where it's full of encouragement . We work on goal setting . You can work out some relationship problems , personal problems , but to a certain degree . So obviously , like a therapist , they can diagnose you with a mental health condition or disorder , they can refer you to a psychiatrist to get medication or that kind of thing , and they can treat you . Coach is almost more of like a supportive role and the one thing that I love and why I ended up sort of going through it and then finding my feet and sort of pivoting into the first responder realm , obviously because I kind of just feel a great passion for that community . But so coaching is client led . So there is like a formula and a system of you know when we come and talk we go over certain things , but it's about you coming to talk to me . You choose , you dictate what we talk about . So I follow your lead and when it comes to first responders , we're generally take charge kind of people . So to come into a healing and a wellness environment when you're still maintaining a certain level of control , I think it's really important and very encouraging for people who may be a little resistant to actually seeking any kind of help . Encouraging for people who may be a little resistant to actually seeking any kind of help .

Speaker 1 34:58

And life coaching probably isn't as big in Australia I think some people might know about it . It's definitely a lot bigger in the United States and you can . I think . One of the other things as well I love about being a life coach you can be a life coach for anything . You can literally help people for anything .

Speaker 1 35:12

On my my course that I did . There were like with someone who does relationship coaching for premarital because he's a celebrant , so he then does coaching for that . There was someone who was like a polyamorous coach . There was someone who was a fertility coach . There's like it's endless , and so that's why I was kind of like well , I have this great passion for first responders because A I was one , b I'm still married to one and C so many of my friends you know , obviously back home and then even like family members in the States are in that realm and I think that it is a demographic that there is not enough support for , there could never be enough support for , and there's just never enough help for the people who help everyone else . So this is just me trying to do it in my little way .

Speaker 2 35:59

I love that . Now I just want to unpack a few things that you've actually said there . Just give you absolute kudos for what you're doing , because what you're doing is you may very well be preventing someone ending up in therapy . I think that's one of the most important , and that's from me as old Papa Rog , which I get called , but Papa Rog looking in at someone who's young and enthusiastic about coaching people and helping them before it becomes a massive problem . They have to have therapy to get out of it . I liken this to as a nutrition coach , with what I did was I studied eating disorders , because I want to know how not to send people down the line of eating disorders , to steer people away from it . I understand the research on what kind of things head people into anorexia or to bulimia or to binge eating disorder . What kind of behaviors do that ? So what I do is I now coach people in everything other than those behaviors to get them to there .

Speaker 2 37:00

As a former first responder yourself , doing what you're actually doing , you come from a massive place of empathy , and I think that's something that you can be really congratulated for as well . I think that's something that you can be really congratulated for as well , and I think this is where a lot of first responders or ex-first responders or law enforcement or whatever let's just call them first responders , because it's very American first responder . But I think we need to adopt it a bit more here , because we just call them emergency services here , and when we think of that , we think of police , fire and ambulance , and that's literally the reason why I asked you to define what you call a first responder , because I think we need to use it a bit more personally . Now you were in a job where all you wanted to do was help people and make a difference , and now it's obviously in your DNA , just like it is in mine . All I want to do is help people and make a difference . No matter what you're doing , you're always going to be doing that . Look at what you've done . You've gone from policing into a suicide crisis line because it impacted you and all you wanted to do was help people to now life coaching .

Speaker 2 38:00

I think you are the right person or people like us are the right people to do that , because it comes from a position of empathy . I've got no doubt at all that , because of where you've come from , people actually relate more to you because you can talk their language , you understand it , you've lived it . You know what it's like to be the other half of a shift worker . You know what it's like to be the shift worker . You know what those feelings are . And I think coaching in the true sense of the word coaching is far more important . It's almost like a preventative measure to stop people from ending up with a psychologist , because once you get to a psychologist it's a long way back , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 38:41

Yeah , very much so , and I sort of always sort of phrase it . What the position that I play , or the role that I play , is that I'm bridging the gap so between , like a lot of American first responder organizations . They'll have like a peer support realm , and then you've got the clinical side . So coaching is obviously a non-clinical approach and so , like you're saying , like I bridge the gap between peer support and clinical services .

Speaker 1 39:07

And I think there is such great power in being listened to . No one is listened to . You've tried to have a conversation with someone . They pull their phone out and they've got their phone in their face or they're distracted , and all it is is about giving my clients that level of , like you said , like that empathy , understanding , insight .

Speaker 1 39:25

And I am uniquely positioned because I was a first responder .

Speaker 1 39:29

I'm married for one , so I do know both sides of the coin in that respect , I think just , I'm a firm believer that I think everyone has the answers to most of their problems within themselves and they either just don't have anyone listening or they don't have anyone asking the right questions .

Speaker 1 39:46

And that's where , you know , my policing and detective skills and investigative interviewing , you know , comes into play , because I do know how to ask someone the right questions or I know how to hear what they're saying , but I can watch their body language and be like all right , so your voice is telling me this , but your body language is actually telling me something else , like do you want to rethink that or are you aware of that ?

Speaker 1 40:12

Like all that kind of thing . And I think , being a cop , like , we're taught to be observational , so I think all of that comes into play and there's like a phrase I see myself as a conduit between you having like the life that you currently have and then helping you get to the life that you actually really want . There are people who really do need higher end assistance and even if I'm like a stepping stone and I'm like Oi , buddy , like I can help you to like a certain extent , but I really think you need additional services and I will support you and help get you there , but you're still coaching when you do that ?

Speaker 2 40:46

Yeah , that's still coaching . Yeah , very much , because what you're doing is you're listening to them and then you're referring them to where they need to go . I do this . I get people that come to me that might have an eating disorder , anorexia . I'm not in a position to actually coach a person with that , but I can coach the person to the right place to go and I still think that that's important . But they might come to me thinking I'm what they need . Or someone might come to me thinking I'm what they need . Or someone might come to me thinking I'm a binge eater . And then you start talking to me . You go . Well , actually you're not a binge eater . You're just having episodes where you overeat every now and again . Let's address that and we can work on that sort of thing . So I still think by coaching , you're steering people in the right direction .

Speaker 1 41:25

With the first of all , I don't really ask my clients to sort of go down a path that I don't feel like I've traveled myself , like I've done a lot of personal work and personal growth and learn how to have compassion for myself and learn how to look at things from a different perspective , because I'm a big believer in very minor perspective shifts and adjustments can actually have monumental impact in your life and in your relationships and everything like that . So , because I know that I've done a lot of that work myself and look , everyone's a work in progress . I'm not perfect and that's part of my charm , but so I think as well that it's like I'm not sitting here from like this position of authority . Being like you need to do A , b and C , like coaching isn't about giving advice . It's about helping you come to that resolution on your own , but being given like a little bit of a nudge along the way .

Speaker 2 42:24

Great statement . That's exactly what it is coaching .

Speaker 1 42:27

Also , having been a first responder , you know something I also talk about and it was sort of it's been the motto of

Safe Spaces for First Responders

Speaker 1 42:33

my business and it has spun into something else , but it's .

Speaker 1 42:36

I will hold space for your darkness and I also sort of try to like , you know , position myself in terms of if you need to kind of come and almost have like an unofficial debrief , like if you're just like man , I had this job at work Can I just like talk to you about it .

Speaker 1 42:50

I really just need to like clear it out of my head , go for it , because they should know , or like from working together , they will know that I can handle it . Nothing they say is going to shock me , going to make me judge them , anything like that . It's a safe space and I don't have to sit there going , oh , what does this mean and what's that ? And da , da , da , da , da like just lay it on me , you know , and that's kind of , I think , part of the uniqueness of what I bring to my coaching and my clients or that sort of thing , that they know that it is a safe space . Then , obviously , moving ahead , in many , many years of study , my aim is to be a therapist specializing in treating trauma for first responders . So I'm offering this now and that's down the track responders .

Speaker 2 43:35

So I'm offering this now and that's down the track . I hope you're enjoying the show . If you are , please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished . This helps the show's reach enormously . And have you got my free ebook the Best Way to Eat on Night Shift ? Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast , why we should fast and how to best go about it . I've even included a few recipes to help you . I've put a link to the e-book in the show notes .

Speaker 2 44:00

And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next ? Well , I've got you . If you would like to work with me , I can coach you to thrive , not just survive , while undertaking the rigours of 24-7 shift work . I also conduct in-house live health and wellbeing seminars where I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence-based information to help your wellbeing team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace team . To reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace . I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned . You can find me at ahealthyshiftcom or on Instagram at a underscore healthy , underscore shift .

Speaker 2 44:45

Now let's get back to the show . I , literally on my walk this morning listened to Dr Jenna Cussis on her podcast talking about how she goes about it and what she says . It's no good studying and then going . This is what you do and this is how you do it , unless you've got that life experience in that job . So what she does now is she takes herself out on patrols , she goes out , she sits there with the people , talks to them and you know yourself Erin the conversations in the car between 3 and 5 am it's shit .

Speaker 2 45:19

But , by God , that's where you start to really understand and get to know people , don't you ? And that's what she's doing , so that she goes right now . I understand the problem , so now she can actually find the solution or work with a person on a solution for it . I think that's very , very important and this is where I think you personally are someone who you come from that position of experience , and I think someone like Dr Jenna would think that you're great because you've done it and to go into that area , and I , god damn , I wish I've had two or three people at the moment that are really fed up with policing clients that are saying to me I'm actually thinking about going down into the psychology and I'm going , yes , we need more people doing that out there today that it's got an understanding of what it's like to literally hold space for them . Yep , that's the aim . That's the aim and that's what you're saying , and I think this is really good .

Speaker 2 46:12

Now , can you talk to our listeners about the type of challenges that you actually see ? Do you you're coaching couples , individuals

Challenges in Relationships for First Responders

Speaker 2 46:19

, or what sort of challenges do you see that ? Couples or relationships , or you know one , or even what ? What are you actually seeing and can you ? I don't know whether you can guide us with you know some of the success stories with just simple strategies , because I know in mind coaching shift workers at the moment and I'm in the same position as you .

Speaker 2 46:39

I come from someone who's done shift work for 39 years right , so I can read science and then what I can do is I can go yeah , that won't work in our environment , but I could manipulate this a little bit to make it sort of work , and that's why I work with the light and the hydration and the movement and get people up and about and moving to get that light , because this holds a massive impact . It's free . Getting that light is free . Having a glass of water before probably costs you 0.00001 of a cent to have that glass of water before your coffee , and going for a walk costs you nothing either , and those three things first thing in the morning are literally game changers for your life and they do make a massive difference . So just summarize some of the challenges and what simple strategies have actually helped them .

Speaker 1 47:26

I primarily work with individuals . I think that's sort of more my preference . Obviously I could make exceptions , but you know , I think just one-on-one seems to be a little bit better . Obviously , I think a lot of first responders suffer from a work-life balance Like that's sort of one of the challenges that you know I see a lot in terms of , you know , a lot of relationship struggles too . So a lot of first responders are in relationships with other first responders . So there is a level of understanding there .

Speaker 1 47:55

But sometimes , when there's not , there can be like a certain amount of distance that can be created between a couple when one member is in the job or in a first responder role and all of the trauma exposure and the shift work and everything that kind of comes along with that , and then how they then cope with that . If their way of coping isn't to bring that partner and make them sort of involved in their process of coping , I think it can create distance because one person ends up feeling like well , they don't talk to me , I don't know what's going on , they're cranky all the time . So , um , really just kind of learning to communicate I think is one of like the major hurdles that a lot of first responder couples can have , and that also comes into play as well . Was that person a first responder when you met them or did they then join the job ? And , as we know , we all change to a certain extent when we do join the job . So then that can have an effect on a relationship too .

Speaker 1 48:59

So a bit of like a lack of understanding , a lack of communication and you know , I think something that maybe no one really wants to talk about but is also comes into play is like a lack of trust sometimes because we work in , you know , roles where we can become very close to our workmates , we spend extended hours with them . You know , I'm sure most coppers out there would have ended up having a work wife or a work husband or like something like that , and then that can make their partner at home feel insecure , feel jealous , all that kind of thing . So that can lead to like a bit of a lack of trust . So yeah , they're probably some of like the main things that I can think off the top of my head and even just coping with what they see and developing better strategies other than just I'm just going to go for night shift drinks and get smashed at the pub and just wish it away or hope it away or bury it away till it pops up . You know , later and I think I was talking to someone about it the other day , and when I first joined the job , I was working with a lot of men in their like 40s who'd been on for sort of 20 years , and I look back now and they were so angry and they were so rageful and I never really understood why .

Speaker 1 50:17

And and now I do get it they had different pressures on them as well , but it was also at that time like , yeah , they just they went to the pub and they , you know , told black human jokes and which we all do , but people didn't deal with the shit , like they just didn't know how to or they didn't want to .

Speaker 1 50:36

I think almost all of them are divorced now , like it's unfortunate , but it happens . So I think you also have to go , and maybe it's just some of my perspective , but I really see a marriage with a first responder as a partnership . My husband goes to work , he goes to work for 24 hours , so he has to go to work and be in charge , be worried about you know , whatever it is that's going on there , but he also then doesn't need to be worried about what's going on at home . So it's like that level of trust that I know he's not going to do any undue risks at work and be silly or , as he also knows , I'm going to look after our boys , I'm going to , like , feed his mom dinner and keep an eye on her . Everything's going to be taken care of . And it's that symbiotic relationship of like I'm going to judge how he is when he gets home depending on how tough his thing was and you know how tough his night was , and it's just . No one can ever give a hundred percent .

Speaker 2 51:35

How did you actually get to there with your husband ? Don't get me wrong here . I'm asking this question because to me , that's exactly the relationship that I have with my partner as well , that I never have to worry about . I know she's not being silly . She knows I'm not being silly , although she probably wonders sometimes , but anyway , but the thing is , your husband can comfortably go to work and he doesn't have to worry about what's going on at home and you are at home and you don't have to worry about other than the natural worry that he's your husband , who you love . Lie with that , he's off in a very , very dangerous situation and we saw only here two days ago firefighter killed in a fire , which is disastrous . Right , I mean , we all poke muck at the water fairies , and we do , but you know , when something like that happens , it gives us an understanding that this is what happens . So yeah , I did call him a water fairy .

Speaker 1 52:26

I won't tell him that Actually I might . Being on the other side of it is very challenging , like being the wife of a firefighter and we live in the town that he works

Supporting First Responder Partners

Speaker 1 52:34

at , so I know . When there's a job , like it's I've had that phone call or that text at like 11 o'clock at night , being like don't freak out , but I'm on my way to hospital , da-da-da-da-da , and it's like but he communicates with you and does it .

Speaker 2 52:48

The point that I'm trying to make here is these are conversations that you need to have on date night , isn't it ? Just so you know . This is what I expect , this is what you expect . You don't need to make it a great big right . Get your piece of paper out , sit there , right . This is what we do and how we go about it , because then it takes all the fun out of it . But you know , I know , and you would see this all the time , and what you spoke about with like 40-year-old men , like those poor old men , like those poor old men , the 40-year-old men . But anyway , by the way , you're nearly 40 yourself too now . So just keep that in mind , right ?

Speaker 1 53:20

I know Next year TikTok .

Speaker 2 53:27

What I'm saying is there's massive impacts in this because they're bitter and twisted in what they're doing . They don't want to be doing that . The shifts are killing them . They're eating all the wrong foods . They're putting on weight . They are what they eat . So they end up feeling pretty awful about what they're doing and how they're going about it . They're absorbing an awful lot of what's going on . They're absorbing an administrative nightmare . They're absorbing everything else . They are angry and they do come home frustrated . Well , it's frustration , but I think if you look at the emotion wheel and you look at anger , you've got to keep going out the wheels to find out exactly what that anger is . It's not anger , it's maybe frustration , or it could be anything else . You would use the emotional wheel yourself .

Speaker 1 54:06

Yeah , and that's very true . A lot of other emotions present as anger . Grief can present as anger . Fear presents as anger Like so many , like insecurity , especially in men , sometimes presents as anger , like it's totally yeah .

Speaker 1 54:20

I mean I know you're saying like , you know , let's not sit down with our notepad , and you know really , but it is , it's having heartfelt conversations with your partner and it's to kind of go , look , I'm not going to take offense , like hey , we need to have like a conversation , and I mean , look , if you're going okay , if you and your first responder partner are like cruising and nothing seems wrong and everyone's happy , like cool . But not everyone is in that situation and it's massively just . Everyone knows . You know what happens when we assume right oh yeah , that's right .

Speaker 1 54:49

So , and we catastrophize if we don't know , we catastrophize as well , which is yeah we catastrophize , we think of like the worst case scenario , like that person he was short with me , oh I must have done something wrong and it's like no , like he was thinking about something else and he didn't mean to be short , but then I've internalized it and it just like spirals from there . So it's really just like kind of about maybe even just asking the question hey , like when you get home from work and you've had like a really terrible shift , what do you need ? That's right .

Speaker 1 55:23

I'm actually just not sure what could I do for you or what could you do for yourself .

Speaker 1 55:28

So , like I know , you know some people have like a bit of a long drive so they decompress on the drive , like my husband . I think his drive is seven minutes but he goes and gets a coffee on his way home from work and he goes to like a different place , extends his drive and that kind of helps him decompress , because we have young kids so he walks in the door and no matter what kind of night that he's had , they're like da-da-da-da-da and so excited to see him , of course , and he's wonderful , but like I can normally tell in his body language and his face and whether he's had like a good shift or not . So it's always like how was your night ? Okay , what do you need from me ? Can I make you brekkie ? I'll put the sauna on , you need to go take a nap and I can pick the kids up , like whatever it is . It's really just asking the questions instead of making assumptions . I think is one of the easiest ways to figure it out .

Speaker 2 56:18

Could not agree more on that . The worst thing ever and this is where a lot of shift workers make massive mistakes is storming out of the bedroom

Navigating Relationships and Mental Health

Speaker 2 56:27

in the heat of battle , when you're on night shift and trying to sleep and one of the kids is playing up and absolutely losing your mind at your wife , at the children , at your partner , at everybody . What does that achieve ? Yeah , not much . It doesn't achieve anything at all . But if you have an expectation and you talk about the expectation , you say listen , this is what I need , I just need this today , that's it . And you just talk about it outside of the heat of battle . I think I work with my clients around this as well that sometimes it's surprising , isn't it ? And you must see yourself , erin . People don't literally sit down and have these conversations . They just don't . And you think why don't you have that conversation ? They go . I don't know why we don't . We're just not those people .

Speaker 1 57:07

Yeah , and equally too , like not being scared of what the answer is going to be Like . If you're going to ask the question , be prepared for the answer . Equally , there can be something . So it's not also just on the spouse , it needs to be on the first responder too , to be able to voice what it is that they need if they feel like they aren't getting it , but also something that I think is really important .

Speaker 1 57:27

I work with my clients with it . It's like learning to be self-reflective , learning about yourself , learning what your triggers are in terms of like , oh yeah , when I'm on night shift , when the kids play with this toy , it has this like buzzing noise and it really grates on me . So like when mom and dad are on night shift , that toy is just like up on the shelf for the week . Like really minor perspective shifts , like knowing what it is that you need is half the battle , cause sometimes we also don't know , and if you don't actually take time to figure it out , then how can you communicate effectively with someone who loves you and wants to support you , but maybe is finding that they're having trouble doing that ?

Speaker 2 58:09

Do you find that one of the other things I know I do like you and your husband like ? He works two 24-hour shifts and you're doing what you're doing , but you're in a position where you can manipulate around that as to what he's working and what he's not , so it makes it easier . Do you hold space for him ? Do you make sure that you have date night with him , even though you've got the two children where it's the two of you ? And this is about the two of you ? I think we can put special things in place around this as shift workers , and I think it's really important because we really can get into just the business of raising children , can't we Like ?

Speaker 1 58:41

I go to work .

Speaker 2 58:42

I come home . Ships in the night , Ships in the night . I go to work . I come home , it's my turn to look after the kids . You can go to the gym . It's my turn to do this , it's your turn to do that . And then you get to the end of the week and you think , God , all we're doing is just doing a business . And you grow apart . There's no intimacy , there's nothing , and you get to the stage where you think I don't even know why I'm bothering anymore . Really , what are we in this relationship for ? Then you start questioning it . Then it catastrophizes . Then one of the partners ends up finding some of that elsewhere , so that just becomes a massive problem . So we need to find time , don't we ? And make time .

Speaker 1 59:19

Very much so and it is something that I know , whether it's research or just like a known thing that , like the first , I think five years of like when you have children is like a obviously like the most challenging , and b it's when a lot of couples separate because they might not have the foundation in place to be able to cope with all of the stresses that come along with having children . And then throw into the mix like a first responder role or two people who were first responders bringing you know whatever stuff from their own childhood , plus trauma exposure at work . Now the stresses of like you people who need things from you 24 hours a day , like it is a lot like parenting is hard work and then you know it brings up stuff from your own childhood , like it's multifaceted , so really learning to connect with your partner and remembering that your relationship is an entity unto itself . So , personally , that was something that was like important for me , that it was kind of like oh yeah , I'm a mom , but I'm also a wife and this whole family falls apart if our relationship stops functioning .

Speaker 1 1:00:28

We're not perfect . We have our good moments and bad moments , like everyone , but I think we've always sort of been able to communicate pretty effectively and we're a bit hit and miss with the date nights , you know . We've sort of when you lose a babysitter you're like oh up , shit , creek . But even it's like we sit on our front steps and might have , like you know , a drink together . We live in like a thoroughfare . It's very busy , like it doesn't have to be this big , planned , extended thing . It can just be small , but it's when they're impactful and meaningful is what's important about it .

Speaker 2 1:01:00

I think it's really , really important and I love that you've highlighted as well that it doesn't have to be we're going to this restaurant , then we're going to go here and dance and we're going to do like , oh Jesus , as you said , you can literally just go and sit in your front doorstep and just have a wine together and just that's what it is . That's making that time and holding that space for each other as well . I think the other thing is too , with mental health . It's not just about your partner at home as well , it's also about your friendships too . Isn't it Because we have demanding friends that we're trying to juggle the whole lot all the time ? It's okay to say no , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 1:01:36

No is two things it is a very powerful word and it's a complete sentence .

Speaker 2 1:01:42

Yeah , it's not open for discussion , just no .

Speaker 1 1:01:44

And it needs to be no thanks anyway . You don't actually owe anyone an explanation for why you don't want to or can't do something .

Speaker 2 1:01:52

And I want people to hang on that and remember that it doesn't need to be no , because it's just no . That's it , because we burn ourselves out . We're already burning out at work and then we feel this social obligation . This is really hard for first responders as well , because they feel that because they're not around when their friends are around , that when their friends are free and they are free , that it's got to be about them . No is actually okay . Mental health is a massive problem for our first responders now , isn't it ? And to me , from what I'm seeing , what I'm hearing , what I'm reading , it's worse than ever . Do you agree with it , or are we just being made more aware of it ?

Speaker 1 1:02:30

It's a good question and I don't know . Like I was having this conversation with someone on my podcast like a couple of weeks ago , and we were talking about suicides in law enforcement and we're like we don't remember hearing about it for like probably the first 10 years of our careers whether it's because we are more aware and everything is more publicized , I feel like it's always been suboptimal . I think it was handled so differently , it was shut away . It was like you don't talk about it , you stuff that shit down . You know , don't talk to your spouse , you know , go drink at the pub .

Speaker 1 1:03:09

Like the stigma and culture , headache and cloud that we are still engulfed in is from those previous generations of people who weren't allowed to and weren't encouraged to talk about it . So I want to say I think it is worse , but also because us in our roles , I feel like we

Challenges Facing First Responders Today

Speaker 1 1:03:27

play so many more roles than perhaps they did . Like when you were a cop in maybe I'm like the eighties you were just a cop Like you would just do your policing , whereas , like you know , now you attend mental health crises like you would just do your policing . Whereas , like you know , now you attend mental health crises . You attend the like all of the domestics domestics have like exploded , like I feel like we perform more roles within our role of being a police officer than maybe they did in the past . So I feel like , perhaps in that sense , like we're probably like exposed to a lot more than maybe we ever were , and just more like variety too .

Speaker 2 1:04:01

My personal opinion is it's a lot worse now mental health in first responders . A lot of first responders now don't feel like they've got the support of not only their management . They definitely don't have the support of the media , which means they don't have the support of the public and they can feel very , very alone in what they're doing . I think COVID did a lot of damage , a big microscope on particularly police and I'll say this as well nurses were promised the world during COVID . Everyone was locked down so that nursing could cope and they would make sure they had the numbers and they were in a position where they could actually really support and do a really good job by the nurses so that when they came out of COVID everything was going to be great .

Speaker 2 1:04:47

But society has failed them in a massive way . Well , when I say society , the governments have . They've failed them dismally because they're leaving in droves now just like policing , policing worldwide , everywhere , leaving in droves . It's not just a USA problem , it's not just an Australian problem , it's not just a European problem or Asian problem , it's worldwide , everywhere .

Speaker 2 1:05:10

Now COVID did a lot of damage and I think media and the American thing of defund the police like oh geez , you know , like seriously , let's get a grip on all of this sort of stuff . The normal society looks at it and goes , yeah , give us a spell . But I just think that it's COVID did a lot of damage . Like here am I now talking to you on a podcast and you're in Boston and I'm in Melbourne in Australia , all right . So we've got a network going because we follow much the same people and that's how I came across you and found you as well , erin . So you know , when tragedies happen , you share , I share , you're made aware , I'm made aware , we are made more aware of it because social media does that . That tends to squash us .

Speaker 1 1:05:52

Yeah , very much so . And then it is like something that you know like is also big on social media and I'm sure you probably follow them too . There are organization and sites that keep track of reported suicides of first responders and there is the really awful statistic at the moment that more first responders in all of like you know , dispatches , firefighters , police officers , paramedics , emts , ems they're losing more to suicide than line of duty deaths .

Speaker 2 1:06:21

So they're dying at their own hand . The job is risky , like it's horrendously risky with what they're doing , but that's not what's killing them . And I think this is one of the biggest issues that we have and I must admit I'm being made more aware of it because I think we , australia here here , are a little bit ignorant to a lot of it , because it's not massive . It does happen and it's a massive tragedy . Administrators all stand up or management stand up and go . God , it's awful .

Speaker 1 1:06:44

You know like this is terrible , but I also wonder about being Australian but also living in America . Now , like there's definitely cultural differences , so when it comes to policing , there's like a lot of racial factors and then also like so , even though there is stigma attached to getting mental health assistance , americans are a lot more vocal about going to therapy , like everyone here goes to therapy , it's like what they do , whereas I don't know if that's as vocal and Australian culture , which is something that I'm proud of and I love , but we're more like laid-back kind of people and you'll be right , it'll sort itself out . Trauma doesn't sort itself out . Trauma exposure , cumulative , complex trauma . Unless you work at it , it doesn't just sort itself out .

Speaker 2 1:07:34

And I'll tell you the statement . I actually listened to Lindsay Farr's podcast the other week . Behind the Line , in relation to she's gone on a massive rant around this is what you signed up for . No , it's not . This is not what you signed up for . Like , when you joined , you did not sign up for where we're at today . You didn't full stop and you shouldn't blame yourself that . Oh well , this is what I signed up for . Because it's not what you signed up for . This is not what you signed up for and you need to be sorted and supported a lot better than what you are . All right , let's move on from that , because we'll just rant on about that in a big way . So what are the benefits of first responders actually ? I think we sort of covered this with the coaching to therapy and the conduit type thing , but what are the benefits

Benefits of First Responders Communicating Experiences

Speaker 2 1:08:14

of first responders talking about their experience ? Should they be actually talking about any or all of their experience , or just like significant events ?

Speaker 1 1:08:23

Personally and from my experience , it's about having the opportunity to process something at its first instance . So even people who experience post-traumatic stress like . So post-traumatic stress is actually a natural thing to go through if you have endured a traumatic event , like it's your body's coping mechanism and it's just when it , you know , continues on past a certain mark , generally about three to four weeks , or if it's really significantly impacting your life in any way . Like that's when you're like oh okay , like maybe perhaps turning into more of an injury and going down like the disorder path , whereas going oh , I went to like a really awful job and that's like I'm thinking about it a lot , I'm having trouble sleeping or that kind of thing Like that can be rather normal , like often coppers and fireys and everyone a little bit more desensitized than most .

Speaker 1 1:09:15

So something does bother you , or the fact that it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back , like it happens . Whereas if you get into the habit of actually talking to someone about like a challenging job and you might not even necessarily think it was that challenging , but it's kind of about that old , like you know , we screw up and actually if drinks , it's like , oh yeah , you just kind of shoot the shit Like . It's kind of that kind of atmosphere , that kind of debrief , where you can offload it on someone and you can talk it out .

Speaker 2 1:09:41

If you actually are given that opportunity , sometimes it can prevent it escalating to the point where if you've like shoved it down instead of talking about it , then you get to that point where you perhaps need therapy and develop a disorder , whereas if you can just learn to get into that mode of like talking it out in the beginning , In hindsight , because you would have been around at the time where you used to do the night shift , do the quick changeover and then go for drinks afterwards , where you debrief the week , and even though you might've just briefly touched on that and touched on that and touched on that , you had an opportunity to just vent it , get it off and get other people's insights as to how it impacted on them as well . That's all gone now . No one does it , yeah .

Speaker 1 1:10:23

And they haven't replaced it with anything else . That's the main problem .

Speaker 2 1:10:27

They think they have , but they actually haven't replaced that Now albeit that can be a bad culture at the same time as well .

Speaker 2 1:10:34

But they have got rid of a lot of those things and don't get me wrong here . But even Christmas parties and having those animal turns where you had the community was involved and the police were there and everyone was there . And I've been to quite a few of those where you just feel like you're talking to the cops , like they're just your buddies and mates and they get to talk to you . It's all humanity , it's all very human and I think that was a really good way to do it . But we're not doing that now because we've put things in where members and police and officers now have to go to seek that help and there's still so much stigma around that actually doing that , putting their hand up . And you've touched on this by saying , oh , americans will just line up and go and have therapy , like going down and queuing up for the local gelato . They're just queuing up for the therapy to go in and out and they do that it's very prolific , not so much in the first spot around , like that culture .

Speaker 1 1:11:28

Here definitely the stigma definitely like exists too , but it is . It's very interesting that , how you know , obviously like I've seen like a psychologist in the past and I know friends have , but it's kind of not necessarily something that you like overtly broadcast , whereas here it's basically like you know , going to see a personal trainer and it's like , oh yeah , I've got my therapist on this day and I've got this on this day , and you're like , okay , yeah , well , I do .

Speaker 2 1:11:53

I'm not afraid to admit it that , with what I've been through over the last three years I see a psychologist once a month , I see a psychiatrist once a month , and things like that as well and I found it enormously beneficial to do . What are we achieving ? Sometimes I can walk out of there and not even realize what I've achieved , but it's given me a lot of peace and I'm where I'm at today because of it , and I think it's really , really important that people do . And I also try and encourage junior members junior police , junior hospital staff , junior firefighters , junior paramedics to go and start establishing a relationship with someone that's a coach or a therapist or something like that , so that when it does start to fall apart , there's a history there that they know how to address and bring you back , and I think that's a really , really important thing as well . Erin , have you got anything you would like to speak about yourself ?

Speaker 1 1:12:46

Probably like the main thing I would love to share , which is probably the

First Responder Mental Health Support

Speaker 1 1:12:49

thing I'm really most excited and passionate about at the moment , is I started my own podcast . Yippee , I know I was a bit like , oh my God , there's so many out there , but well , it's , you know . Obviously , like I think a first responder niche is a little bit different , so it's called I will hold space for your darkness . So I think I referred to that previously where I said that was kind of like the motto of my business , and I'll just briefly explain where that came from . So there's an author that I think a lot of people would know of .

Speaker 1 1:13:18

Her name's Brené Brown , and one of her books is called the Gifts of Imperfection , and I was listening to it and I heard this line and I just actually kind of stopped in my tracks and paused it and was like I have to hear that again . And the quote is only when we know our own darkness well can we be present with the darkness of others . Compassion becomes real when we recognize our shared humanity , and I think that's just . You know , knowing your own darkness means that you can hold space for other people's darkness , and that's what I'm about , you know , and that's kind of where my motto came from . And then I was thinking , you know , I've been a where my motto came from . And then I was thinking , you know , I've been a guest on a few podcasts . And , thinking about it just went , oh , I think that's what I want to call it , and I'm like , oh , is it a bit too much of a mouthful ? And I'm like , no , whatever , let's just go for it .

Speaker 2 1:14:07

So whatever run with it and it becomes known . And I think now you want to hit first responders and I honestly believe that anybody who is a first responder that was to look at that title would totally understand what it means .

Speaker 1 1:14:20

Hopefully . Yeah , it's a first responder mental health podcast . So basically the premise is that I have guests come on who are first responders or former first responders . I've had police officers , I've had firefighters , I've had paramedics Kind of like the whole gambit . I've got a correctional officer coming up soon , hoping to have a dispatcher soon .

Speaker 2 1:14:47

I've got a great dispatcher for you to speak to , not Melissa , she would never do it and she's in the US , so she'll be very , very relatable . She's fantastic . I'll put you on the Raspy Dispatcher .

Speaker 1 1:14:52

She's known as Ah lovely .

Speaker 2 1:14:54

Yeah , she runs her own podcast as well , but I would certainly I've appeared on her podcast . I would certainly suggest that you get onto it , she's fantastic .

Speaker 1 1:15:02

Yeah , no , I'll look into that . That's awesome , thank you .

Speaker 2 1:15:04

Really good because she's an educator as well to put out there for people . So that's it . I will hold space for your darkness podcast . Here's one for you as well that you can write down . Okay , and that is . The only way out of the darkness is through the darkness .

Speaker 1 1:15:17

Oh , I've heard that one . What's that one from ? I don't know .

Speaker 2 1:15:20

But the only way out of the darkness is through the darkness .

Speaker 1 1:15:22

You're like it's from Roger . It's from Roger .

Speaker 2 1:15:25

Yeah , it's from Roger . No , it's actually not , but it's a very important line . You have to work your way out . You've got to want to change , You've got to want to do what you want to do and take steps in that direction . Erin , thank you so much , Like really genuinely . Thank you so much . I could say we could talk for hours but we just about have .

Speaker 1 1:15:50

I know I feel like we could .

Speaker 2 1:15:52

In the show notes . I'm going to put all of your connections in there If you want to just run through just a couple of them . For us , like your Instagram , is what .

Speaker 1 1:16:02

Erin Jane Coaching .

Speaker 2 1:16:03

At Erin Jane Coaching . Your website is wwwerinjanecoachingcom . Facebook Erin Jane Coaching . I'll put a link to your podcast on Apple in mine as well , so that people can find it .

Speaker 1 1:16:16

Yeah , so it's available on Apple Spotify , iHeartRadio , YouTube , all that kind of stuff .

Speaker 2 1:16:23

So I know I listened to it on Google podcast , so I know it's there and the Overwatch Collective . I'm very excited to share that as well , and I hope people can go across anyone that's having a bit of a struggle . Now , you've been fantastic , all right . Now you live in Boston , you've got two houses that you can live in . You've got Boston and you've also got goddamn Melbourne as two homes . But you see , I just won billions of dollars and because you're sick and tired of traveling between Boston and also Melbourne , what I'm going to do is I'm going to buy or build you a holiday house anywhere that you want to go in your world . Now you don't have to take the firefighter with you if you don't want to , but you have to live in it for six months . I would imagine that you would probably want to run away from a Boston winter .

Speaker 1 1:17:06

Okay , six months every year , yeah .

Speaker 2 1:17:08

Where am I going to buy or build this house for you , Erin ? Where do you want to go that you can live in , but you have to live in it for six months ?

Speaker 1 1:17:14

I know I mean , like part of me is like at least just somewhere in Australia so that I could be close to my friends and family . But that's probably a little bit more of the realist side of me . For a uh , just a beautiful place Like Hawaii holds like a special place in my heart , cause that's where Eric and I sort of really probably like cemented our relationship after we'd met in Europe . And it's beautiful , those volcanoes , it's beautiful water I don't think you can beat that , erin , thank you so much .

Speaker 2 1:17:45

I sincerely appreciate you . I appreciate everything that you're doing for the first responders . It is such a critical , important role to be coaching people into the direction of maybe keeping them away from having to go towards therapy . I think it's fantastic and very , very underrated and undersold . So kudos to you for taking the time and actually doing that and using your experience as a first responder to be able to provide the empathy for people that need to do that as well . So well done . Thank you , roger . I really appreciate that . And there you have it .

Speaker 2 1:18:18

That's Erin Nugent . I know it was long , I apologize for that , but seriously , what a great chat with an awesome person as well , someone who I can really relate to . We clearly related very well together . What a great story , isn't it ? Imagine going on holiday with your girlfriend and coming home with a firefighter as a husband and ending up having to leave where you lived , travel almost the opposite side of the globe to set up a new life and now does absolutely fantastic work for first responders , and I think this is a really , really good thing to show what people can do if they leave their jobs in first responding to help people and to support people that are still trying to do it .

Speaker 2 1:19:02

Great podcast . If you get any value out of that , please don't forget rate review the podcast . It really

Podcast Rating and Review Request

Speaker 2 1:19:08

does go such a long way to help the podcast and I thank you so much for sticking all the way through to the end and I will catch you on the next one . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to ahealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .