Circadian Lighting for Shift Workers

Speaker 1 0:00

And now those LEDs applied them into light fixtures for control rooms . We installed about 65 control rooms around or over North America and in some in Europe and we were able to show big improvements in sleep , in people's performance , in their well-being . We showed gastrointestinal disorders were reduced . We showed people were using less over-the-counter medications Very interesting finding because they weren't trying to self-medicate themselves to cope with the feeling of fatigue and malaise of shift work .

Speaker 2 0:36

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy Shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified Nutritionist , veteran Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7 Shift Worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers , using evidence-based methods , to not only survive the rigours of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and wellbeing so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show . Hello and welcome to another episode of a Healthy Shift Podcast your podcast , our podcast , the podcast where I assist you with evidence-based strategies in your shift working life .

Speaker 2 1:25

Today , I am absolutely thrilled to have Dr Martin Moore-Ede , known as the Light Doctor , on the podcast . Now . Dr Martin Moore-Ede is a significant leader in circadian lighting today . For over 40 years , dr Martin Moore-Ede has been a leading expert on circadian clocks and their regulation by light . This is really , really significant for us as a shift worker . He's a professor at the Harvard Medical School from 75 to 98 and led the team that located the suprachiasmatic nucleus , which is the biological clock in the human brain that controls the timing of sleep and wake . Now he's the founder and CEO of a global consulting firm named Circadian and pioneered technologies to help people safely adapt to working around the clock . He is a world leader in this and that's why I'm so humbled to have him on the show .

Speaker 2 2:23

Dr Martin Moreed has released a number of books and his latest book , the Light Doctor , is unbelievable . I highly recommend that everyone gets a copy of the book and has a read of it . It's currently on Substack . You will hear during the podcast today that Dr Martin Moreed is releasing the book as a paperback or a hard copy and that will be released , hopefully , in the next few months . Let's just get on with the show , because it's just a fascinating chat , this one and I had so many brain explosions in this . I've listened to Dr Martin Moreed on a number of other podcasts and I highly recommend you do the same , because there's something that comes out of each one . But let's just say this you're going to absolutely love it . Dr Martin Moore-Ede , welcome to the show . How are you today ? I'm good , good to meet you , Roger .

Speaker 2 3:11

I'm deeply honored to have you on our show here today . Because of your work and what you do , I think it's really , really important moving forward for the health and well-being of our shift working community . So could you do us a favor and just tell us basically a bit about yourself and what your actual background is .

Speaker 1 3:35

Well , I got into shift work essentially through medicine . I was trained in England as in my medical degrees and then headed over to North America to do my surgical residency and I did the first year of that and there I found myself working a pretty extreme form of shift work 36 hours on 12 hours off , 36 on 12 hours off , about 108 hours a week . Classic at that time and still is to some some extent for people in residency programs . Walking around like a zombie , obviously nodding off in the operating room , having the surgeon yell at me writing prescriptions , I couldn't make sense of the next day . You know it was not just me , it was everybody . And of course the whole fatigue . You know I have my first well , only actually drift off the road accident on a freeway , you know , just fortunately I survived . It was a large median strip , but that's what I experienced , that whole experience of just being constant fatigue and trying to adapt to sleep and behavior and perform my best . That's what's got me interested in .

Circadian Rhythms in Shift Work

Speaker 1 4:42

You know what was going on at that time and the whole area of circadian rhythms was really not very well established . There'd been some little bit of work in animals and so forth not so much in men or humans , I should say in people and so we took a detour , went to Harvard , did a PhD there in the physiology department and then joined the faculty and had a chance to build a laboratory studying circadian rhythms . Actually , I had an appointment in the surgery department so I could do human studies on the one hand and studies in animals and monkeys and other species in the physiology department , and that led to a very productive time where we were able to show a lot of what happened in the body when things fell apart , when people got disrupted by irregular schedules and so forth , and that resulted in multiple papers and books and everything else that went along . And somewhere along the way companies started to contact me and say hey , you're talking about sleep disruption , patterns of this .

Speaker 1 5:46

I've got a whole lot of fatigued shift workers here . What can you do ? And that led us to do some projects in industry . The first one was actually a Great Salt Lake Minerals and Chemicals Company taking potash out of the Great Salt Lake . Those guys were working backwards , rotating eight-hour shifts around the clock . They were constantly fatigued , they were having errors , they were having health problems and they invited us to do something about it . And of course we knew nothing at that time other than the science . So we said , okay , we can do this . We can change the schedule , we can change the rotation so it rotates forward . We can give proper breaks for people , we can do training on the first shift work training ever . I don't know if they've ever done it before . This is back in the 1980s . That's a long time ago .

Speaker 1 6:31

I remember talking to the plant manager , looking at him over the conference table . He said have you ever done this before , martin ? I said no , this is going to be the first . It's going to be a major scientific breakthrough , because the last thing an industrial manager wants to hear that he's going to be the first at anything . He wants to be the nth , where n is a very large number . It's a proven safe thing . But he was sufficiently desperate , I guess he let us do it and out of that project we were able to show big changes in health and gastrointestinal issues resolved , we were able to have sleep improved and , most interesting , we were able to show productivity increase . So the tons of potash coming out of that mine went up , you know , 20% , 30% as a result of that and stayed there and that of course meant a big amount to the bottom line . Turnover also reduced . You know all that type of stuff , employee turnover .

Speaker 1 7:25

So that was the first one and that led us then to form a company called Circadian which now has offices around the world and we work with every conceivable type of shift work operation and we've done it now Last year was our 40th year offices in Australia and Brisbane . We have offices in Japan and Europe and elsewhere around the world and we work across many of the major companies airlines , we work , obviously , pipelines and manufacturing plants and you know the big car companies use us for their big plants with thousands of workers and we do police forces and everything you can possibly imagine that runs 24-7 .

Speaker 1 8:04

And out of that as the story goes on . We were doing all this and then people started talking about light as a problem , because the World Health Organization came out with a finding , based on several bits of research , that light at night was causing increased risk of breast cancer and prostate cancer and other disorders . The shift work managers , of course , that we were dealing with said Martin , we can't do anything . What can we do about that ? I mean , we have to have the lights on at night . We have to . We can't stop the operation at night . You know what's the problem .

Speaker 1 8:37

And that then led us in turn to looking at what it was in light . That was the problem . It turns out to be a blue part of the spectrum . At what it was in light , that was the problem . It turns out to be a blue part of the spectrum . And once we fix that , then we can actually solve that lighting problem too , so you can have good quality lighting without the disruptive circadian effects at night and the harmful effects at night . So it's been an interesting story . You know life's work , as it were , but I'm delighted to have the chance to talk a little bit about it and answer your questions .

Speaker 2 9:03

That is amazing . What is really good ? If we can just back over that potash story as well ? You've got actual data there now from the time before you went in to the improvements that have been made for them by implementing quite simple strategies . Really , isn't it so to make sure that people are following what the science is telling us in the actual N1 , the human , to show the improvement that it is ? And I think once we improve sleep and we understand the eating around that it makes such a difference to the wellbeing of the shift worker as well . So to have the data that shows the improvements there makes such a difference , doesn't it ?

Speaker 1 9:47

Absolutely does . And , of course , over the years we've collected a lot of data in a lot of places . We just completed a series of studies some big automotive factories where we saved them tens of millions of dollars because turnover went way down . They weren't having to keep hiring people all the time .

Speaker 1 10:06

But the secret just talking about shift scheduling for a moment it's not just science . You've got to meld the science with the operational need of that facility . You know what does it actually need to do ? And then you have to do it as what in fact are the preferences and lifestyles of the shift workers . And you've got to do it as a buy-in and you've got to do it as a mutual exercise . So you know , decreeing this is the best shift schedule doesn't work . Just randomly picking shift schedules doesn't work . It's a systematic process and it's a collaborative process and when you do that you get real buy-in on the shift schedule the employee you can represent . You know this is a place where people are living close by short commutes . This is a place that's remote , where people are driving an arrow , or , you know , it makes a bit of difference in terms of how you do shift schedules . So , you know , by tailoring the shift schedule , applying the science and applying the operational characteristics .

Speaker 1 11:01

I'll just tell you one thing about police In Canada , one of the major police forces . They had that place staffed exactly the same number of police officers and first responders on call every hour of the day . Well , that's crazy because , as you know , the demand is hugely variable . Saturday evening is hugely more demand than Tuesday afternoon , right , it's hugely more demand than Tuesday afternoon , right . And so the whole idea of proportional staffing enabled us for them to get the work done , but staff the schedule so that you had the optimal number of people . So a lot of places are variable in terms of demand , a lot of places have different things , and so over the years we've sort of developed that expertise and , as I say , we work with over half the Fortune 500 , and we have operations in Australia , everywhere around the world you can imagine . In fact , we've done projects in every continent of the world . I think the only place we haven't done it yet is Antarctica , but Africa and everywhere else we've been doing mines , we've been doing all sorts of operations around the world .

Speaker 2 12:04

It's very close to my heart being able to apply what I have learned with what the science has taught us , and this is where it's important . I believe that we have shift workers that are able to research and dissect research , look at it and be in a position where they have experience in a shift working environment . That's where I came from . 36 years I'd done in shift work and then I went off into the nutrition field and now the chrononutrition field , and then , of course , there's chronobiology and we learned so much about the body .

Speaker 2 12:40

But we also you've rightly pointed out we need to be able to understand the needs of the workplace as well , because it's an industry and we've got to be able to apply that into it . It's no good just saying , oh , this is what the research tells us , so we have to do that . So I think that's a really , really important and very valid point that it's about working in with these organizations to make sure that their needs are met . The workers' needs are met , then everyone , as you've quite rightly said , buys in , and then , once everyone's bought in , it just changes the whole mood , the whole demeanor , everything in the workplace . That's wonderful . I want to go to the very basics , if I can with you please , doctor , and that is that you and your team actually discovered the suprachiasmatic nuclei .

Speaker 1 13:31

Can you please explain to our listeners what the SCN is and what role it plays in simple terms , because this is a key factor for our shift working community , isn't right , absolutely yeah , there is a master clock , effectively in our brains and the hypothalamus of the brains is located back behind the eyes and that clock is a tiny pinhead size , clusters of cells which measure the time of day and actually keep the various rhythms of the body in sync with each other and in turn they are linked by a pathway to the eyes , a special pathway called the retinal hypothermic tract , and linked to special cells in the eyes which we now know are effectively blue detectors . Very interesting they detect blue light , very narrow band of blue light they detect . And because these so-called intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells long name IPRGCs , we call them those cells in the back of the eye are not associated particularly with vision . You can't see images with them . They're really to do with light levels and they're detecting whether it's day or night and informing the body , because the photopigment has a peak sensitivity at about 480 nanometers , which is a sky blue color . Interestingly , that blue color is the signal that says if they see blue it's daytime , if they see no blue , it's nighttime time , if they see no blue , it's nighttime . And that works really well in the natural world and for you know , 10,000 generations before electric light , it worked perfectly because , you know , day was blue and night was dark and very little blue in it . Now , in fact , of course we come along with electric light and Edison's electric light had some blue , first of all the old days with fire , wood fires and candles . Very little blue at all in those . So when our ancestors used campfires and they used candles and all sorts of that type of night , it didn't disrupt our circadian clocks at all . The message that were day and night wasn't messed up .

Impact of Blue Light on Health

Speaker 1 15:42

Edison came along and invented the light bulb . That has about 4% blue in the typical incandescent light bulb and those of course were the predominant light bulbs for a long time . They've just been banned in Europe . I don't know whether they're banned in place in Australia , but they're certainly banned in America . As of last August you can't buy an incandescent light bulb . But essentially those bulbs are relatively low in blue .

Speaker 1 16:05

But where the problem is starting to happen is when blue-rich lights were developed because they were more energy efficient . Fluorescence were the first things that came in the 1970s and 80s , or fluorescent lights , and we started to see there's a fourfold increase in breast cancer before fluorescent , blue-rich fluorescence and after . We also , of course , more recently , have seen the emergence of LED lights , which are now the predominant light form . Those LEDs are also based on a blue pump , so they're pumping out a spike of blue light . Now they spread the colors out with some phosphors to give you a white appearance , but you've still got to . If you analyze the spectrum , it's a big spike of blue .

Speaker 1 16:48

The problem is our blue detectors in the eye are seeing this blue when you've got the lights on in the evening or on a night shift and they're saying it must be daytime , which then starts resetting body processes . It suppresses the melatonin , it disrupts the skin and clocks . It makes our metabolism a daytime metabolism , not a nighttime metabolism . It makes us actually hungry . That blue light increases your appetite . Shift workers on the night shift snack under blue light .

Speaker 1 17:17

And so when we discovered that it was this blue and it's a fairly narrow part of blue because color spectrum when we see white light people don't think about it . When you see a white or yellowish light , it's got all the colors of the rainbow in it . You know . It's got violet , it's got blue , it's got green , it's got yellow , got orange , got red . All those colors are sitting there , but we can't see that they all merge together in our perception and we see it as white light . Those color content matters , and so we said , okay , if we can develop lights that still appear white in other words , you can still see and read and do your job and we could take out the blue , maybe we could do something about this problem . And that's what we did .

Speaker 1 17:58

We invented LEDs that don't have that blue in them , and now those LEDs that don't have that blue in them , and now those LEDs . We applied them into light fixtures for control rooms . We installed about 65 control rooms around or over North America and in some in Europe , and we were able to show big improvements in sleep , in people's performance , in their well-being . We showed gastrointestinal disorders were reduced . We showed people were using less over-the-counter medications Very interesting finding because they weren't trying to self-medicate themselves to cope with the feeling of fatigue and malaise or shift work . And so those lights .

Speaker 1 18:36

Then you know , having demonstrated and having done the science and then showed these benefits , we said , okay , we have to scale this thing up . So we licensed it to some of the largest lighting companies , including particularly Corus , who eventually acquired the technology , and they now , I'm delighted to say , they've not only got light bulbs which are zero blue , but now they have lights which are both circadian blue appropriate name and they provide white light that is blue rich during the day , and white light that is devoid of blue , zero blue , effectively called max blue and zero blue . And those lights just got introduced last week at the lighting show in New York and now they're worldwide distribution . So we're part of the whole exercise of getting them out into the workplace . So the solution is there .

Speaker 1 19:28

So what these lights are doing is it looks like white light . Day and night looks the same , but it provides that blue signal for day and it provides zero blue at night , and so it doesn't disrupt the circadian rhythms . People perform better , they feel better , they can do their work , and it's all switched automatically . So it's sequenced to natural sunrise and sunset , so you know it's programmed so that it knows what local time zone left , you longitude , wherever you are in the world , season of the year and everything else , and they just the lights do it automatically . You don't want to fiddle with the switch and control them yourself . You want to do it automatically . So we're very excited about that .

Speaker 1 20:07

There are also coming out other types of lights and now there's going to be a Kickstarter campaign coming out for a screen . So we can do this for the computer screens , because another source of light , the lock shift organs , are sitting in front of the screen . That screen is popping out blue because it's got these blue LEDs in it . Now we've got screens that are metameric , which means you cannot see the color change when they look the same . It's either rich in blue during the day or it's got no blue at night . So now we've got light bulbs , we've got fixtures , we've got screens , we've got the total solution .

Speaker 1 20:43

And the key is bathing the shift worker in a healthy environment that is keeping him synchronized to regular life while he's working shift work . That's the sequence , and a lot of people have questions about it . They say well , how is that possible ? Do we need to adjust ? The problem is the shift worker tries to physiologically adjust . They get all screwed up . They've got to adjust back when their day's off , they've got to adjust back in the other day . Much better to keep their circadian clocks all in sync with natural daylight and then , as a result , they can actually cope and because the light is naturally alerting , they can work safely through the shift and get to sleep , and get to sleep when they need to get to sleep . You know daytime sleep , if it's a night shift , and so forth .

Speaker 2 22:18

Am I right in saying , then , that it's the blue light only that is actually disrupting our circadian rhythm ? It's not light in general . The question I ask here is even though I'm working in a call center and I've got the lights on , but all blue light has gone , does that mean , because I can see light , it's not disrupting the circadian rhythm because the blue light spike has been removed from the light ?

Speaker 1 22:45

That's right . Essentially , all light has some effect , but the blue light is 25 times more potent than any other part of the spectrum , and so you are mostly picking out most of that effect of light . That is undesirable . So it's really . Yes , the secret is removing the blue during when you're nighttime hours , providing the blue during the daytime hours , and that's what keeps our bodies and rhythms in sync , marching in step with the natural world . You know , when we don't do that , we get .

Speaker 1 23:16

It's not just this suprachiasmatic nucleus , because that's the master plan . We've got clocks in every cell of the body . We've got clocks in our muscles . We've got clocks in our liver . We've got clocks in every cell of the body . We've got clocks in our muscles , we've got clocks in our liver , we've got clocks in our stomach and elsewhere , and all those clocks get out of sync with each other . That's the problem of jet lag and shift work and everything else is that malaise when all your clocks are out of sync with each other . So it's important to be synchronized in the environment , but also synchronized internally , but also synchronized internally , and that master clock , supported by the blue light schedule , enables everything to keep in sync and hence perform at their best .

Speaker 1 23:52

It affects your immune systems . The problem is called circadian disruption . When the clocks are out of sync and the body is out of sync , circadian disruption is reduced immunity . You're more susceptible to COVID , more susceptible to flu and everything else . It affects your risk of heart disease . It affects risk of diabetes and obesity . I mean we were able to show the glucose tolerance test , which is that sugar . You drink sugar and you figure out whether or not your glucose goes too high in the body . Those are very heavily influenced by blue light . Adversely . You've got the pre-diabetic condition perfectly healthy person in just one overnight shift . That's all reversed by using light that is zero blue .

Speaker 1 24:35

So it's a lot of research . We've been working this now for the last 10 plus years and we've had it in the field in 65 Fortune 500 companies six , seven years now . So we've got a lot of experience with it and it's really very effective and I'm delighted that now it's getting into scale manufacturing . But there's a road to climb because virtually all the lights sold today are blue rich LEDs , static blue rich LEDs , which means they don't change day and night , and I think that's a huge problem . You know we're seeing much more cancer in young people . That's one of the new things we're seeing . We're seeing much more illness and depression .

Speaker 1 25:16

The effect of this blue light is amazing in terms of , if you get it wrong , you increase the risk of depression , psychiatric disorders . It's fascinating Now the other side of the risk of depression , psychiatric disorders . It's fascinating Now . The other side of it , of course , is you want to use natural light as much as you can . The other message as part of this is not only deal with the indoor lighting , but , if you can get outside in the daytime , your schedule allowing , of course , the shift worker , if you're someone who works the days getting out in the morning hours in particular with the natural sunlight , because there's so much more blue and richness of blue and other colors in that light , so natural sunlight is really critical . So people who get outside more live longer , which is a fascinating finding Big studies . Now you know the golfers , right , live five years longer than non-golfers because you know they're out out the course .

Speaker 1 26:05

What three , four hours , whatever they're outside right , and people who are outside live much longer than people who have light at night , whether it's shift workers , and people say , well , maybe shift works , there are other risks of shift work .

Speaker 1 26:20

But in fact , what's fascinating is the studies of people who sleep with the lights on at night . Right , a lot of people do that . Over 50% of elderly people do 30% , 40% of younger people do . Sleeping with the lights on at night the same effect as working shifts in terms of disorders of health and double the risk of people who sleep with the lights on . Double the risk of obesity , diabetes and heart disease . Staggering findings that now we know there's a lot we have to do and unfortunately , you know , the lighting industry has not helped us at all because it's just still pumping out cheap , blue , rich light , and so this is going to have to be a bit of a campaign that everybody should be aware of . You know what the light is doing to them and look for better solutions , aware of what the light is doing to them and look for better solutions .

Speaker 2 27:13

I hope you're enjoying the show . If you are , please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished . This helps the show's reach enormously . And have you got my free ebook the Best Way to Eat on Night Shift ? Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast way to eat on night shift . Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast , why we should fast and how to best go about it . I've even included a few recipes to help you . I've put a link to the ebook in the show notes .

Speaker 2 27:38

And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next ? Well , I've got you . If you would like to work with me , I can coach you to thrive , not just survive , while undertaking the rigours of 24-7 shift work . I also conduct in-house live health and wellbeing seminars where I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence-based information to help your wellbeing team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace . I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned . You can find me at healthyshiftcom or on Instagram at a underscore healthy , underscore shift .

Speaker 2 28:19

Now let's get back to the show when it comes to installing . I can understand why , when people build homes today , they fill them full of these energy efficient LED lighting because they don't understand the impact that that light is actually having on their health full stop . And we're exposing young children to this and we're also exposing ourselves to this lighting all the time . And it's cheaper and so , of course , people are going to use them to replace your lighting in your house with circadian lighting . What is it costly ? Are these circadian lights an expensive process ? I mean , at what value do you put on your health full stop ? But is it expensive for someone to just replace their whole home with circadian lighting ?

Speaker 1 29:09

Well , it is a bit more expensive , obviously , than regular lighting because we've got cheap masks , produced stuff out of Asia these days you know that everyone is using , and lights that change automatically you know are more expensive . But to give you a sense of it , you can buy zero blue light bulbs now and , as I say , you'll make sure there are different types of them . For example , these are LEDs , so they're going to last much longer than incandescents most of all . But like $25 or so is the cost of one of those light bulbs . Think about this for a moment People who are under blue rich light have this higher risk of diabetes and obesity .

Speaker 1 29:45

What do they take ? They

Impact of Circadian Lighting on Health

Speaker 1 29:46

take a Zempik or Gova or one of these medications . In America that costs people $600 , $700 a month . Well , changing a light bulb is a hell of a lot cheaper and better for your health than living under blue rich light and then popping pills or injections in order to deal with the medical consequences of it . So the cost is really not that great to change this and the costs are coming down . The chorus family of companies is driving these into scale , and so that's very important . Fixtures are more expensive than in terms of performance and productivity and reduced absenteeism . Boy , you're paying for that so fast in terms of return on investment .

Speaker 2 30:29

To be able to improve productivity to start off with , reduce illness and unplanned leave , even to the stage where we look at shift workers with mental health issues , ptsd and things like that , to be able to improve the health all round . There's a massive benefit here for companies to actually go right . This is what we're doing , even if they were to start in certain areas , like if I think of places like call centers and put it into places like these call centers with the circadian lighting . The question that I actually have is as humans , do we notice the difference in the lighting ? I think we have a perception that lighting-friendly blue light , I think we always see it as a yellow light , like when our screen changes on our phone or our screen changes on our computer or we go and buy a blue light globe that we put in our bedside lamp , we see it as yellow , proper circadian lighting . Does it have that yellow hue or is it literally just look normal ?

Speaker 1 31:31

So this is a good question because you can get the effect of removing blue by getting what's called a very low correlated color temperature . In other words , the standard way the LEDs work or lights work , is they use something called the color temperature or the correlated color temperature , cct , and you'll see that in the label . A typical comfortable CCT is 3,000 to 4,000 Kelvin . If you get way down to below 1,800 Kelvin , maybe 1,500 Kelvin , you get a very yellow-orange light . Right , it has no blue in it . So you've solved the problem that way , and there are companies introducing these lights now . I mean , there are 60 hospitals in Europe and 40 nursing homes where they put these lights . They're very low in blue at night , but the problem is it's a yellow-orange light which is rather depressing . What we did is build a spectrum that shifts that by using some violet light which doesn't trigger the circadian problem in the mix , and that's enabled us to whiten it down . Now it's a little yellower than you know , really bright light , but it's a very comfortable color and shift workers really liked it very much . And so , yes , it does change color a little bit , but it's a gradual change . So as dawn and dusk occurs , the lights gradually shift color from being a little whiter to being a little yellow , but it's in a very normal , comfortable range of color temperatures which people find very good . So there are lights out there that take away the blue by going to a very yellow-orange light . Just like you know , when you look at people using glasses to blue blockers , if your blue blocking glasses have a slight bluish tint or whatever , but a very little tint , they're actually doing no good whatsoever , right ? If they're very yellow-orange looking , they're blocking now the right light . Right ? I have to tell you this .

Speaker 1 33:23

We were investigating this problem . We knew the blue light was the problem . We knew what the spectrum was . The first thing we said is let's develop eyewear where we put a coating on that blocks the blue . We developed this eyewear and everything , and the first place we did this was in Australia . It so happened we had companies in the mining industry and the big control centers there there controlling some of the railroads .

Speaker 1 33:47

We got everyone very excited and put on the lights . We thought it was a great thing and put on the glasses , equipped everyone with the eyewear and , lo and behold , whoops on the screens . You know this is mostly single track stuff and you see each train moving across the screen in a different color . You put the glasses on and trains disappeared . Now , that was not , you know . We put the brakes on that project . So the people had to lift their glasses , look at the screen , you know , make sure they saw the train . That was a real learning lesson .

Speaker 1 34:20

That was early in the days . What the shift work managers said to us . They said Martin , you know , come on , why didn't you change the lights ? In the days , what the shift work managers said to us is that , martin , you know , come on , why didn't you change the lights in the building , not change the eyewear ? And that's what actually led us to start developing any of these that solve the problem , because then you know that we don't have any of those color problems .

Speaker 1 34:37

But that was the industry experience . So I remember doing a couple of quick trips running these projects and saying we ground that one to a halt very fast . Now there's a place . Obviously , if you're using eyewear , if you're in your home , if you're in a place you can't control the lights of your kids in the library or whatever else and you can't change the lights , then eyewear is obviously a solution to it . The best thing is to get the actual light bulbs and light fixtures changed in where you work and in your home , and so in my home I have these lights , the zero blue at night and all the rest of it practice what I preach . But it's exciting to see this now coming into mass production and , as I say , now it's available worldwide , including Australia . So our office in Brisbane helped me lead the charge and got a lot of companies working the shift work very excited . So , yeah , the time has come and this is now deliverable .

Speaker 2 35:32

Yeah , we're very excited it's wonderful what we're learning now . It's even more exciting now too , because with our smart homes like you know , a lot of people have got these smart homes now that as you walk into rooms or certain times of the day , lighting changes and things like that too . The scope is amazing . Like you can literally have it that as you're coming home , the lighting is changing to the lighting that you need . It goes to the right light in the bedroom while you're in the bedroom , and so on and so forth , and I think this is really , really exciting times .

Speaker 2 36:05

But what I do want to get into is what I find fascinating , and I'm going to be honest with you here . The penny dropped for me just now when you were talking about the SCN the supracusumatic nucleus does not see that it's day or night other than pretty much through that blue light predominantly . Day or night other than pretty much through that blue light predominantly . So while we're walking around at night in a call center that's got circadian lighting on , the SCN doesn't really realize that it's daytime per se . Is that right ?

Speaker 1 36:35

That's right . The SCN realizes that it's been told that it's daytime during the day and nighttime during the night . So it's not losing , it's still in sync with the outside world , even though it can't see as . So it's not losing , it's still in sync with the outside world , even though it can't see , as I say naturally .

Speaker 2 36:48

That's amazing . Now I , on my Instagram story , nearly every single day put up a picture of

Impact of Morning Sunlight on Health

Speaker 2 36:56

from my bed looking out the window , and I always make it sky before screen , like the people should be getting that daylight before they start looking at their screen . Now I do this for two reasons . One reason is to reset that circadian clock , to get that daylight in , to show the body that it's daytime . The second reason is so that you are actually setting your intentions for the day and giving your brain a chance to wake up and register that it's daytime before you start filling your brain full of rubbish off your mobile phone . What are your thoughts around that ?

Speaker 1 37:29

Yeah , no , I think that exposure to light in the morning is the most effective time . That actually is very good for your health . Fascinating to show how powerful morning daylight is . Basically , hospitals in Scandinavia have found out that if they put patients who've got psychiatric conditions or whatever in rooms of a hospital that are facing south and east , they get morning sunlight . And other patients randomly end up in rooms that are facing north and south that don't see that sunlight coming in or daylight coming in in the morning . Guess what they're out in half the time . Same doctors , same medications , same medical conditions . They're just cured faster as a result of morning sunlight , and so it's a very , very powerful thing . People who are near windows get more sleep at night than those who are in the cubicles or wherever away from the window . So that morning sunlight is really critical and certainly , as I say , it affects lifespan , affects health , mental health , affects general health , all causes of morbidity , cardiovascular disease . People who see sunlight get fewer deaths from heart disease and all the rest of it . So the data is huge .

Speaker 1 38:41

My book , by the way , the Light Doctor , which was out of Substack as a serial , is now coming out as a print book that tells the whole story and that I really would recommend , because you know I've written a book that really is trying to explain to people so they can be advocates , educated people like yourself and others who are interested , as something to hand to their manager and say , hey look , this is the science here , it's well demonstrated and there's so much evidence behind it and that's key , so it's a matter of persuasion . So the Light Doctor , you can look it up on the web . That's the book that will really help everyone , I think , really explain this science and what the evidence is and how strong it is and what the solutions are and where to find the light fixtures , light bulbs that you need .

Speaker 2 39:30

I've followed on Substack to the Light Doctor book , but I love a hard copy of a book and I do have a library full of books behind me here that I love to read and learn and I think one of my favorite books is Russell Foster Professor Russell Foster's book , lifetime , and I love to have the hard copy . And I've got to be honest with you , dr Morit , I opened the book and I reference it quite often and I think it's very important that we have a hard copy of a book for people to do . That Substack's great . I'm so excited that you're releasing your book as a paperback or as a hard cover for people . Is it released in the hard copy yet or not ? I haven't seen that Well .

Speaker 1 40:03

I've just got the proofs being prepared right now for it , so we're going into production with it . I hope we get this out later this spring . Out of the readers on Substack and it's become a bestseller on Substack online 86% of them say they want to buy a print copy , which is very encouraging because I think , exactly like you say , having a book physically that you can share with people . Exactly like you say , having a book physically that you can share with people . I had someone call me up the other day and said I want to get half a dozen copies so I can use it for education purposes . Hey , read this . You need to pay attention to that . So that will be coming out . You know , obviously I may need to get it on Amazon and elsewhere .

Speaker 2 40:38

Wonderful , I think we are in a position today that we've got so many questions around . Why have we got more cancers in society ? Why are we an obese society ? Why are we suffering from more heart attacks and cardiovascular disease and stroke ? Why is this actually occurring to us ? And what happens is and because I'm in the nutrition field , everyone goes oh , people are just overeating . It could actually be not a lot to do with the food . It could be the signals that come from the light , correct ?

Speaker 1 41:09

Absolutely . I mean , I think there's so much written on light . I was being amazed because obviously I've been looking at the publishing houses . You know one publishing house on their list , big publishing house , has 1,940 books on nutrition and diet and one book on light and health , and that was published in 2013 , before LEDs came on the market . It was crazy there's nothing out there . And so we've got and everyone I speak to is amazed by this all this evidence of light , and it's just to that point of getting to the tipping point where it breaks through . But right now we need to get the message out . As I say , delighted to be on your podcast and appreciate , roger , everything you're doing to spread the word on this .

Speaker 2 41:54

I will absolutely be spreading the word on this . I can totally understand the battle that you would have , facing corporate industry today going in there trying to sell them something that they can't see . And that's the biggest problem that we have , because we can go in and say that vending machine over there , you need to get rid of that and put healthy food in it . And people go , yep , that makes sense because that's what we're told . As you said , there's 1900 books on nutrition , one on light . It's a massive battle that we need to work to highlight . We are always trying to work out why people do certain things in the nutrition field , why people are obese , why are they overeating ? What is it that's different about them that causes them to overeat as against somebody else ? And it could literally be like the shift working the light exposure , confusing the hunger and satiety signals and actually playing havoc on the hunger hormones , ghrelin and leptin . Fair call .

Speaker 1 42:52

Yeah , no , I think there's a huge interaction here . Obviously , what you eat is important , but there's interaction with light , because light stimulates hunger . Particularly blue light stimulates appetite and can have people overeating just by exposure to blue light .

Speaker 1 43:07

So there's a big interaction going on here and so , yeah , we've got a balanced nutrition . I think there's a lot of interesting nutrition and diets and everything else . But you know , this is an area which is new and where we're doing terrible things to ourselves right now with the led lights and we we're being forced into it . It's an energy thing , right ? In other words , people say , well , you know , led lights are energy efficient , that's fewer lumens per watt . But you know , roger , when they measure lumens per watt , people don't realize that a lumen is really measuring the very brightest part of light , which is the yellow and green part of the spectrum . So a lumen when you say lumens for what we can produce , it says we're using electricity to produce a lot of yellow and green light that makes it look bright .

Speaker 1 43:56

Blue light and red light blue light , which is critical for sagittal rhythms , red is essential for healing , it is part of the spectrum are not measured at all by lumens . For what ? So is it energy efficient if we're not doing the same thing ? In other words , energy efficiency is really doing the same thing for less electricity If we're doing something different and we're not doing something healthy . Are we really being electrically efficient , right , is it really energy efficient .

Speaker 1 44:26

But the world is so locked up and I understand climate change and that's a problem and it's an issue that has to be dealt with . But it's got labeled as this learners for what ? Business ? Which is crazy because it's not measuring the full effect of light and certainly isn't measuring healthiness of light , so it's leading us to push for lights , or the government to push for lights , that are fundamentally unhealthy . We've got to get rid of these blue rich LEDs or these static blue rich LEDs . Blue rich LEDs are fine during the day , but not at night . We've got to make sure that those lights are changed and we get rid of this blue when it is so harmful .

Speaker 2 45:05

It causes so much disruption to our health and sleep and everything else do you feel moving forward now that this is an occupational health and safety issue for workplaces , that they are actually , once they're made aware of it , if they're not doing something about changing the lighting and getting rid of that blue rich light at night in a shift working environment , are they putting their staff at risk ?

Speaker 1 45:35

absolutely . Yeah , no , this is a real occupational health risk and it is actually fairly simple to fix . That's the amazing thing about it , right ? In other words , if you think of it , blue light is a pollutant at night , but most chemical pollutants are extremely hard to get rid of All the PFAS chemicals and all those types of things , the forever chemicals , very hard to change , you know , lead piping , everything else is expensive and hard to change . This is just change the damn light bulb . It's pretty simple . So you know , we just need to get people to understanding that they need to buy light with view to health , not just due to illumination , and realize that you know you can have good illumination . Now that's the fortunate thing with healthy light . Why wouldn't you have that ? And that's really the question .

Speaker 2 46:23

For me , it just makes perfect sense because , as a company , companies are so politically correct and so correct in every way when they're worried about gender and things like that . But if someone raises an issue around the light and the damage that the light is causing , it's an absolute no-brainer that they should be getting on the front foot and doing something about it straight away , before they start to receive civil suits down the track that . You've exposed me to this light . I've been working here for 20 years . You've been exposing me to this blue light overnight when there was a solution that you were made aware of .

Speaker 1 46:57

One of the things . By the way , I should also point out that people said blue light is good at night because it keeps you awake , right , the problem is that the blue is doing so much harm . At the same time , we've got in our mix , in our spectral recipe , as it were , some violet light which actually is more alerting , so it helps people stay alert on the night shift without causing the health disruption , and so that's really critical . We can solve that alertness problem . Really . There's no need to have blue light , and there's a lot of confusion right now in the scientific community and so forth about you know people are focused on .

Speaker 1 47:36

We need blue light for safety ? Well , no , because it's not worth keeping people alert and really damaging their health and that's irresponsible . So that's really the key here and , as I say , I'm just delighted that we've got the lights finally out mass market available worldwide . We can get them distributed and installed . So they are invented , ready to go and thoroughly proven , embedded and a lot of scientific research demonstrating their value .

Speaker 2 48:05

Amazing . It's so exciting it . It's such an exciting area that you're going into now and your work is just you're saving lives . It's end of story , martin . What you're doing is you're literally going to be saving lives . So , for people that are listening to this , can you give us some researched examples of how circadian lighting has actually improved workplaces ? Now , I've read this and I've actually got the stats in front of me , but can you speak about the 65 Fortune 500 companies that you've got and what data you've got back on how it's actually improved the workplaces ?

Speaker 1 48:42

We've done these , installed in 65 sites and there are everything from control rooms , manufacturing to hospitals and variety places and basically what we've been able to show is improved alertness , reduced operational errors . I mean we've had people doing some pretty critical jobs . What we've done is studies . We've looked at people under their pre-existing lights you the standard lights they have , whether they're fluorescent or LEDs . We then moved and had the lights in place for a year and studied people after a year of exposure . So we now know , you know , how are people operating a year later and we showed a reduction in operator errors , people making fewer errors . We've been able to show that in the lab but we've been able to show that in pretty critical situations . We had one major company with renewable energy , with hydroelectric dams all over North America 67% reduction in operator errors during that time .

Speaker 1 49:39

We've shown sleep improved significantly , both sleep before night shifts and sleep after night shifts improved

Circadian Lighting for Shift Workers

Speaker 1 49:46

and sleep after night shifts improved . We've shown reduction in gastrointestinal disorders and people you know , stomach upsets and all the things that shift workers typically had significant reductions in that We've shown that people use less over-the-counter medications 30% plus reduction in over-the-counter medications used because people aren't self-medicating themselves . We've shown all these studies are done in real-world operations . So we have a research center here called the Circadian Light Research Center where we have a simulated work facility . We have people working , we have bedrooms , totally light-controlled . People come in for a week at a time and we can do all sorts of measures and metrics on those people and we can show their glucose tolerance , their diabetic nature of the blue LED lights and our lights take away that increase of insulin resistance and glucose malfunction . We should appetite and we should snacking on the light shift , by the way , reduced under these lights . Some studies have shown people actually some weight loss in people working nights under the lights , you know , as part of that .

Speaker 1 50:52

So there's a whole host of research studies that we've been able to do which are very encouraging and , as I say , that's been done , the research studies that will have been done over a 10-year period , research studies now for six or seven years we've had the lights in place in real world operations , all sorts of real world operations . Some big companies you know chevron and various others and dow chemical and all sorts of big companies have been involved in this . So we've got the lights in a lot of big , high profile places . Very good response . People like them . People feel more relaxing . It's a stressful effect of the blue rich lights , particularly at night . You can find them rather stressful . So all of that is really positive and certainly all in line with the rest of the science .

Speaker 2 51:37

Do we see an improvement in recovery times ? Obviously we've got our nurses and doctors and everyone working , or at least all the staff working in hospitals at night , not to discount anybody . But do we see an improvement in recovery from patients by getting proper circadian lighting as well ? So I would imagine the biological recovery of the body would have to be better if they were circadian aligned .

Speaker 1 52:04

Yeah , there's a certain amount of studies that are showing reduction in depression in stroke patients . There are a lot of specific examples of studies that are starting to show this . Now you know the data is coming in . Still , hospitals I'm a doctor right , the medical profession is a little slower at uptake than this Much better uptake in a lot of the other shift work type of industries . Willingness to , you know , really take this on . We're starting to see more and more data from hospitals , which is encouraging , affects some depression and so forth . We're now under discussions with two major hospitals here in North America and they're very interested in getting the lights in as soon as possible . We're moving towards that and we'll be gathering more data as we go forward in this area .

Speaker 2 52:47

It is a really exciting area because I think you know , with my time as a shift worker myself , I know working daytime , nighttime , when my job was predominantly an outdoor job at night my vision was better . I slept so much better because I was exposed to natural dark at night and also then during the day the normal natural light . So I was much better . But then I came off the road into a call center where I was exposed to a lot of blue light . My sleep did suffer more . There's no doubt about it . You've answered why . So if there was no circadian disruption there , it would make a huge difference to it , I'm sure . So what way do you see shift workers sabotaging the most in their shift working world ? Like you are dealing with a lot of shift working environments . If you had to put your finger on one thing that they could improve their shift working life , what would it be ?

Speaker 1 53:42

Well , I think it's a very complex situation , shift workers , because you've got to balance . I mean , you know you've got time in the workplace but then you've got time at home and you've got to balance both . And so a lot of it is you know how you educate and negotiate with your family and have the family understanding about your need to sleep in the dark , even if it's the middle of the day in a quiet place . If you're working nights , have the family understand what the schedule is and working around that . A lot of it is communication , all that . So you know we have a managing a shift work lifestyle course that we teach all over the world , really helping the shift worker in everything to do with nutrition , to do with light , to do with family and social events and how to figure that out . That's really key . And then , of course , in the workplace , is the management amenable and educated as to what benefits they could get ? So

The Importance of Circadian Lighting

Speaker 1 54:34

it's all about the with-ins from the management . The with-in is the what's in it for me , right . So if you can describe it in terms of reduction , absenteeism reduction , employee turnover , reduction in errors and accidents , reduction in healthcare costs , those are big whiffings for the management . For the shift worker . It's a different conversation . It's about your quality of life , about your general health , et cetera , et cetera , how we've been able to work over the years and we're great believers that you have to work both parties fully involved . You know both the and if they're unionized , have the union involved . The middle rest .

Speaker 1 55:11

Why are you going to do it that way is because that's how solutions happen . So we're going to have people and done projects right through the middle of major strikes in the railroads , for example , the only thing they could agree on was the project we were doing , because both management and the union sold the value of it . But that's what you're going to do , you know , and what we're doing is , of course , bringing new tools , new technologies . The lighting is a brand-new , exciting thing to add to the mix . To really help all that and I think we need to do you know companies need to look at lighting the workplaces correctly , but also even the shift worker in lighting their own homes .

Speaker 1 55:45

Maybe some subsidies for circadian lighting in the home is a really sensible thing for a company to be doing , and certainly we can work both my ways of getting circadian light bulbs available for the shift worker in his home or her home , and I think that's key as well . So , no , it's an exciting time , roger , yeah , I hope this conversation is really getting the world out and I appreciate what you're doing in this front . So I hope this conversation is really getting the world out and I appreciate what you're doing in this front . So it's been good talking to you today .

Speaker 2 56:14

Thank you so much . I'm very grateful I've had some massive well , I'm going to call it light bulb moments here . I'm very privileged to have listened to you a number of times on different podcasts and I've still had light bulb moments , so I can't begin to imagine what it's going to be like for people listening to this for the first time , and I'm very , very grateful of your time . Our listeners will be very , very grateful and they need to follow your work . In the show notes I will put the links to everything that I've got from you your LinkedIn , your Instagram , your Twitter , youtube . You've got your book website , thelightdoctorcom . You've announced that the book is becoming a hard copy . I will absolutely be front and center for a copy of that and that will sit and take pride of place , because I know the value that that actually offers and people need to be reading that . Today .

Speaker 2 57:01

You've covered so many of the questions that I had just in the way you've spoken , and I knew you would , because you speak so well and so articulated with what you've explained to us at layman's level , which is fantastic . As a return , I've just win billions of dollars here and I have a closing question that I ask people . I must admit , I didn't win the $1.3 billion US lottery this week , which is disappointing , but I'll have another crack next week . So , martin , if I bought a house for you anywhere in the world , I'm prepared to buy it and build it anywhere in the world , anywhere that you would like it , but you have to live in it for six months of the year . Where would you like me to buy it or build it for you ?

Speaker 1 57:40

Oh gosh , that's a great question . I'm English , right , I grew up in England , so I think somewhere in the English countryside is where I choose that I was doing that .

Speaker 2 57:48

You would go home , back into the darkness .

Speaker 1 57:53

America's a great place to work and everything else , but maybe that's where . But yeah , I have a very nice home in Massachusetts and Boston area , so I don't need another home here .

Speaker 2 58:05

No , of course not . Thank you so much , Martin . We're very grateful for your time and I do sincerely appreciate it . Good Thank you , Roger . Great talking with you . And that's Dr Martin Moreed Wasn't that just an amazing talk ?

Speaker 2 58:16

And he speaks so well . I know I had light bulb moments in there . I find it interesting that golfers live five years longer than most people that don't play golf . I thought that was fascinating . I would have thought the stress would have killed them personally , but anyway , obviously I'm not a good golfer , so it wouldn't work for me at all .

Speaker 2 58:34

Light how important is it ? We've just learned how important that blue light is and the impact that it's having on our health . Who's going out to have a look at the circadian lighting now for their own homes ? Yeah , and I think that's something that we really really need to be addressing in our shift working environments Not think , I know and you need to bring it to the attention of the Occ Health and Safety team , HR and get it into the workplace , because you're putting your own health at risk .

Speaker 2 59:03

On that note , if you got any value out of the podcast , please make sure that you share it , rate and review it on Apple Podcasts . I would be ever so grateful . It does make such a difference to the show and it helps me to get guests like Dr Martin Moreid on the show , and I will catch you on the next one . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to ahealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .