Healthy Shift Podcast With Michael Segru

Speaker 1 0:00

It got so bad . I got to the point where I literally wanted to die . I wanted to die in a line of duty and I started purposely putting myself in dangerous situations , hoping that a bad guy killed me .

Speaker 2 0:18

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified nutritionist , veteran law enforcement officer and 24 seven shift worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers using evidence based methods to not only survive the rigors of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and wellbeing so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show and welcome to another episode of our podcast a healthy shift Now . Today's episode is really , really important . I've got a guest on today who is a massive campaigner for post traumatic stress , whether it be disorder or injury , whichever way you call it , but let's address it as post traumatic stress at the moment . My guest today is Michael Segru , and Michael is the author of the book Relentless Courage which , in fairness , literally changed my life . It's been a really really important book for me in my own PTSD recovery and it made such a difference to me and you will hear just how much during the podcast as Michael talks about it Now .

Speaker 2 1:40

Michael Segru began a law enforcement career in the United States Air Force as a security forces officer in an around 1998 . And as a security forces officer , michael specialized in law enforcement , global force protection , anti-terrorism , nuclear security , foreign airfield assessments and air based ground defense . Michael had served in a variety of assignments , including flight leader , flight commander , senior watch officer , chief of command post and a chief of security forces . He'd served all over the United States , europe and Middle East and in South America , and was also a security forces Phoenix Raven , which is the elite of the elite in the Air Force . Michael honorably separated from the Air Force as a captain in 2014 . Straight away , he went into the Walnut Creek Police Department , which is in the San Francisco Bay area in California . He served in a variety of assignments there as a patrol officer , driving trainer , instructor , field training officer he's done everything that you can think of and a patrol sergeant . Michael was awarded the Walnut Creek PD Distinguished Service Medal in 2014 for his heroic and lifesaving actions during a fatal officer shooting in 2012 . But that incident in itself was literally what changed the whole of Michael's life . Michael was ultimately medically retired in 2018 and is now a peer volunteer at the West Coast Post Trauma Retreat and an ambassador for Saviour Warrior . He's dedicated his life now to the awareness , prevention , education and training in the post traumatic stress injury area and the post responder suicide prevention .

Speaker 2 3:26

Michael is extremely active in all of these areas and then ended up writing this book , relentless Courage , which he was literally talked into by his own therapist . And what is really unique about this book is Michael details what was actually happening to him and then his therapist , who is Doc Shauna Springer . She then discusses the biological and the physical impact that that would have had on Michael in the second part of each chapter . It is a book that I highly recommend that people actually listen to , or read or listen to it and then get your own copy to be able to refer to certain chapters , because it is extremely important . The book was released in September 22 and it's been described by Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman , who is the bestselling author on killing and on combat , as one of the most important books of our time and the natural successor to on combat and , seriously , it's really really important that everybody is handed a copy of this book , not only if you're in law enforcement , but anyone who's a first responder or their families . It is such an important book .

Speaker 2 4:43

So let's meet Michael Segru . Thanks for having me . It's my honor . No , the honor is actually mine , michael , and I want you to know that you're actually in a safe place here and anything that you are uncomfortable speaking about , because it's quite a traumatic episode that you've been through to get to your journey to where you are today . So please just say so and I'll absolutely respect that , but our listeners need to hear your story . It's a really difficult story for you to reflect on .

Speaker 1 5:08

Absolutely . But , like you said , you know it's a story that I think many people are going to be able to relate to . They're going to understand it and my story is their story . I mean , we all need to share a story .

Speaker 2 5:19

The reason why I have you on here , michael , is because and I'm holding the book up to you because I not only did I listen to the audio version , but I went and bought my own hard copy as well so I could leave it sitting on the coffee table . But your book is called Relentless Courage and it's winning the battle against frontline trauma .

The Power of Resilience

Speaker 2 5:38

Now , this is how I actually found you and I rated without any doubt I'm not just saying this because you're here right now , but I rated as the finest book that I've actually ever read , particularly in 39 years as a law enforcement officer myself . For me , michael , this book answered so many questions , and it answered questions On a very , very personal level for me that I did not even know that I actually had , at the time , identified behaviors that I didn't realize that I had , but upon reflection I can recognize now , on a personal level , I have actually been feeling incredibly alone and abandoned for over three years and suddenly I just didn't feel alone anymore , and I think that's a lot of credit to you in relation to it , and this is all due to your book .

Speaker 2 6:26

Now , the book really , really resonated with me , and I know I've said that a number of times , but it did . Now I'm lucky I've actually read . Well , I actually listened to the book myself because I wanted to hear your voice , as well as your therapist , which we're going to actually get to your psychologist . Could you please tell us what it was that actually led you to write this absolute masterpiece , because it really is a masterpiece . I'd also like to add that I think it's really important that our families as well as I think this is a really , really important read for them as well . So what led you to that ?

Speaker 1 6:58

So I'm going to make a very long story , not short , but as short as I can for purposes of this interview . But so I'm prior military . I did six and a half years in the United States Air Force . I went straight into civilian law enforcement here in the San Francisco Bay area and about eight years into my civilian career I was involved in a very traumatic on duty fatal officer shooting . Now that incident was my tipping point . I had been involved in hundreds of incidents before that , but I never processed them , I never talked about them . You know I didn't believe in therapy , I just sucked it up and pressed on . Well , this incident forever changed my life . My marriage was over , my health started to fail . I endured a four year federal lawsuit . It got so bad I got to the point where I literally wanted to die . I wanted to die in a line of duty and I started purposely putting myself in dangerous situations , hoping that a bad guy killed me . And thank God , about four years after my incident actually on the anniversary of my incident I finally got the strength and courage to ask for help . And that's where I started my recovery and my journey from post traumatic stress injury .

Speaker 1 8:19

Now my plan was to always go back to work . I mean , being a police officer was my dream since being a child . That was my goal , that was my focus and I was doing everything I could to make that happen and I was making progress . But then I learned that really I was just a number of filling a position , my agency . When I say my agency , it really came down to one person , a person in power , an administrator , who turned their back on me when I needed them most , and this is what I call admin betrayal , institutional betrayal . I'm sure we'll get into this , but that really caused me to make the decision that I could no longer do this job and I decided to medically retire in 2018 from post traumatic stress injury . Now , at that point , I just could have gone away with my life , lived a quiet life and just enjoyed retirement . But , you know , my whole life I've felt a calling , a purpose to help others , and so I started a journey of , you know , spreading the word , sharing my story . I really started one single podcast interview in 2019 . And I owe it to that podcast host because after that , I started to interview after interview . It led to speaking .

Speaker 1 9:41

Now fast forward to the book 2019 , before COVID happened , dr Shauna Springer . She's a clinical psychologist , a Harvard graduate , phenomenal , phenomenal woman . She has worked with combat veterans , first responders . She is truly a culturally competent clinician . She reached out to me on LinkedIn we didn't know each other , and she just wanted to learn what I was doing and tell me about the work that she was doing . So we had a phone conversation and during that conversation I shared my story , you know , all the way back to childhood until present day .

Speaker 1 10:19

After doing so , doc Springer asked me point blank have you ever thought about writing a book ? And honestly , I kind of chuckled because I had briefly thought about it . But post-traumatic stress has really kind of changed my ability to focus , to concentrate , to the motivation that I had . The drive it's just , it's not the same , it's not as strong , at least , as it was when I was working as a law enforcement officer . And so I told her the truth and so we left the conversation at that . A couple weeks later , she hit me back up and she said look , I've heard hundreds and hundreds of trauma stories From soldiers , combat veterans , first responders , but your story is going to save countless lives . And she said I want to make this project happen . I want to do this book with you and , without even meeting her in person , I knew in my heart this was right and I agreed to do this project .

Speaker 1 11:18

And then COVID happened and we actually did not even meet for over a year into this project . We did it all via Zoom , every single week , and I have to tell you that everything truly happens for a reason , and I wouldn't change anything . I've been through anything , I've endured because I'm here today for this purpose alone , and that is to smash the stigma of talking about mental health , of admitting when we need help , when we reach our darkest points , when we don't want to be here anymore . Because I was lucky enough to find that light , to find that help , and I'm on the other side of it now . I'm living a phenomenal beautiful life and I'm a better father today than I ever was . I'm actually present , I'm here and that's why we did this book . And , like you said , this book it's saving careers , it's saving relationships , but , more importantly , this book is literally saving lives . This book is literally saving lives all around the world .

Speaker 2 12:23

I could not agree more with you , michael . Now there's a lot to go back . I've got huge respect for everything that you've done and been through . What I would like to do , if it's okay with you , I'd like to go back to your Air Force career , and you spent six and a half years in the Air Force . Now you were actually and I know this from listening to the book and also reading the book as well . It's not a book that you just listen to and put away . It's a book you listen to and then you flick through it and you pick certain areas out of it . I'll get into the book , but I'd like to start off with you talking about your career , because you were a raven in the Air Force . Can you just explain to us what the role of a raven is and your time , that six and a half years , in the military , and how much did you enjoy it ? Did you find it culturally different ? Talk to me about the time that you were in the Air Force .

Speaker 1 14:11

So I went in as a what's called a security forces officer as second lieutenant , and security forces is basically anti-terrorism , force protection , air base ground defense , nuclear security , law enforcement , foreign airfield assessments , you name it and I served all over the world from South America , the Middle East , europe , united States and I loved it . I really loved my time in the military . Eventually , my last duty assignment I got stationed at Travis Air Force Base , which is here in California and I actually live about 15 minutes from that base today as we speak and I was chief of security forces for the Air Mobility Operations Group and that's where I got the chance to go to Phoenix Raven Training . Now , phoenix Raven Training is basically it's a subset of specialized security forces members who go through

Police Training and Transition to Phoenix

Speaker 1 15:07

very intensive physical training . It's got a high washout rate . It's very demanding and the primary purpose that Phoenix Ravens . They do a couple different things . First and foremost , they go with the actual aircrew , so they're part of the aircrew , they wear flight suits and they're responsible for protecting the aircraft and the aircrew and they go to dangerous or hostile areas , high risk , high threat areas that don't have embedded security forces already in place . They also do things like air marshal duties on contracted aircraft . They do things like foreign airfield assessments , but for me , being a Phoenix Raven , you're actually given a numerical identifcure and that number is sequential , so the number that you get will always be yours . No one will ever have that number . My number is 1173 . And I went through this training in 2004, . But today I think there's only roughly 3,200 people that have ever been through the Phoenix Raven program and , ironically enough , if you can see my shirt that I'm wearing here today , this is the actual symbol of the Phoenix Ravens and we wear this on our shoulder patch on our flight suits . And again , just phenomenal , phenomenal program .

Speaker 1 16:25

Typically the enlisted the airmen who do most of the work as Phoenix Ravens .

Speaker 1 16:30

But I felt compelled as a captain , as a leader , that I wanted to show my troops , my people , that I had what it took to go through this training and that's why I take so much pride in being a Phoenix Raven . I'll tell you today , my biggest regret is getting out of the Air Force . I would have gotten out , but I wish I would have stayed in the reserve . I would have done civilian law enforcement but also been in the Air Force reserves , and I have friends that did that who are still in today and people think that the military and law enforcement they are similar but they're very different and I felt that the camaraderie , the teamwork , the closeness it was there in the military but I felt like in law enforcement it is there . They're aspects of that , but I also felt that it was much more cutthroat , it was much more competitive , it was all kind of for their own thing when it came to promotions or special assignments and it just really didn't have that same family feel that the military had .

Speaker 2 17:28

Kudos to you for doing that , because you're talking about a group of people who are elite in the Air Force . I think that is just something that is just such a credit to you . You've spoken very passionately about how much you felt like you belonged , how much you enjoyed that . It was your regret of actually leaving that . What caused you to actually leave that after six and a half years .

Speaker 1 17:52

Well , there's a couple of factors , you know . Originally I was only going to do four years . That was my commitment and I was going to go into federal law enforcement like the FBI or the DEA or Marshalls . But when I was in the military and I got exposed to those different agencies , I realized that , you know , I didn't want to do that work , I didn't want to be stuck in an office , I wanted to be out in the field , boots on the ground , you know , doing the actual job , working with people every single day . Every day is different , right ?

Speaker 1 18:20

Well , in the military , as I was getting promoted , it was less and less hands-on , it was more administration , you know , more management . And my heart was always , from day one , even in the military , being out in the field with my troops and actually doing the work . And so , you know , I was always going to get out of the Air Force . But the fact is I could have stayed connected through the reserve program , you know , dead of my commitment , once a month , a few weeks during the summer . But I still could have been deployed , I still could have been tasked on missions . And so , honestly , the personal factors were too . Is that I had no children , I hadn't been married . Yet those were things that I wanted to do and , being in the military , I moved , I believe , almost every year that I was in . So I mean , I PCS-ed or moved several times and it's hard to sustain a family , you know , when you're in the military and you're always gone , and all really were factors in my decision .

Speaker 2 19:15

Once you left the military , what was it that led you to joining the police in ? Well , california , where you are if you could talk about where , about roughly , you live and also your agency , because policing is very different in the US as it is to in Australia , because we have just the state polices , so we've got like seven states and territories , so we've got like seven police forces . That's it , whereas it's all council-based there , isn't it ? Or you know , kind of council-based , very different . So where was it that you actually were and what drove you into the police ?

Speaker 1 19:47

So , while I was still in the Air Force I started applying to different agencies Sacramento Police Department , the Sheriff's Department in the county where I worked , Richmond Police Department , where my dad worked , and I got a couple of different offers . And , you know , at first I wanted to work when my father worked . But my father was a legend I mean absolute legend and I knew I would always be in his shadow at his agency and I kind of wanted to make my own way . I wanted to make my own name , to make my father , you know , proud of me . And Walnut Creek PD is the one that I actually picked .

Speaker 1 20:20

And that agency is in the San Francisco Bay Area . It's about 15 , 20 minutes outside San Francisco . It's actually a nice city , it's affluent , there's two interstates that run through it , there's the BART system , which is kind of like our subway system for the entire Bay Area , so very busy . You know , it's a shopping dining destination . There's not a lot of crime from the actual residents there , but there's a lot of criminals that go there to commit crimes .

Speaker 1 20:48

And the agency had a reputation of being very well educated . They typically only hired at that time people with bachelor's degrees or higher and in fact I think even today most officers have a bachelor's , Some have masters and so you know , just had a very good reputation . Same sized , our agency , I believe , had about 125 personnel , I think , like 86 sworn officers . What you have to understand about the Bay Area is we have so many agencies . I mean literally in the San Francisco Bay Area alone we have hundreds of police departments . So you just think of every city , every county has their own agency and you know they all have their pros and cons . But the beautiful thing was is that while at Walnut Creek PD I got selected for an undercover statewide drug task force and that's where I kind of got to leave my agency for a couple of years and go work in very dangerous areas , very exciting areas , and so I kind of got the best of both worlds .

Speaker 2 21:51

Fantastic . So that points to the picture of where you ended up working Now was the Walnut Creek . Was that where your father worked ?

Speaker 1 21:58

No , he worked for two agencies . So he started out at Sausalito PD , which you and I talked about before this interview , beautiful city on the water in Marin County in the San Francisco Bay Area . He worked there until he was a sergeant and he actually switched departments and started all over and went to the Richmond Police Department , also in the Bay Area , but very , very contrasting , very dangerous city . At the time I think it had one of the highest crime rates and murder rates in the actual nation . So if you can imagine comparisons , just night and day . I mean literally they're across the bay from each other , but just night and day .

Speaker 1 22:36

And I ended up being a police explorer for that agency , the Richmond Police Department , my best friend . Well , here's the story for you . So on the cover of the book Relentless Courage , that's not me actually on the cover it's my best friend , who was my best man in my wedding . His name is Joe DeOrian and he is currently a police officer for Richmond . We did a photograph above the Golden Gate Bridge in a military tunnel and that's actually him in the photo . So still have a lot of ties to that agency .

Speaker 2 23:02

I'll give you a vision of what Michael is actually talking about there , but it's a silhouette of a policeman with his sidearm drawn and he's looking from the darkness out of the tunnel . In the light of the tunnel , there's a number of hands that are up and the tunnel goes along , and on the left hand wall of the tunnel is the word strength written , and it's basically the police person facing the light and the pull out of the darkness , and I think that's a very , very powerful cover . It's a very powerful cover and I strongly suggest that people have a look at that . Now , michael , chapter eight in the book is all related to the story about your dad , and I'm not going to spoil the chapter because

Building Trust With Therapists

Speaker 2 23:44

it is quite possibly one of the most impactful .

Speaker 2 23:48

I think your relationship with your father was phenomenal and I want people to either read it or I want them to hear it what he meant to you and also I'm going to have to spoil something here but when you lost him , shauna's reflections around that and I think that was really , really good . Now I do want to just ask one question in relation to Shauna Springer . Now , a person doesn't earn the title , in military terms , of dark unless they are a fairly unique person . Can you explain how a person basically earns the title of doc , not just because you're a doctor ? It's a really endearing term , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 24:25

It's an endearing term but most importantly it's a term of trust , of just real trust and being part of the team and it's bringing her into the fold . And that's a term that she got when she was working for the Department of the US Veterans Affairs and also for TAPS Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors and so you can imagine the respect that she attained and has retained from her work with our bravest heroes and soldiers in the United States . Military and doc actually goes and explains that in the book better than I am , but I can tell you from my own experience that she is part of the team . She truly does get it , she truly does understand it . She is very highly educated from Harvard but understand that . More important than that , she has the real life experience literally saving the lives of countless warriors across the United States .

Speaker 2 25:26

And so just a phenomenal woman , amazing woman , and I have to tell you I mean I'm absolutely blessed to even be able to do this project with her Now , to have her friendship to where I can literally text her , call her night and day and if I'm ever having an issue or going through anything I know she will always be there on the other side of that phone to help me out as someone who's studied a lot in nutrition for argument sake and health and well-being , to have a title that's given to you by the people that you're trying to help would be incredibly humbling for her to earn that title Like it's a simple title , but it would be something that would be really , really humbling for her to actually feel like she belongs and that she's helping and she's doing what she's doing , because it's one thing to study but it's easy to have imposter syndrome as well . So when someone gives you that title , I think it's something that is amazing . One thing that I absolutely love is to hear you speak about Doc Springer , and the reason why I love that is because I know so many people in law enforcement that have gone to receive counseling and have really struggled with that relationship . But I also know people who have gone , and the first time that they've gone for therapy I'm going to call it therapy or counseling . They haven't really opened up or formed a relationship , but they've ended up going back and opening right up like a can of worms . It's given the psychologist or the therapist an opportunity to unpack all of that .

Speaker 2 26:56

I'm going to be honest with you here , michael . That's literally where I'm at at the moment now , these two books that I've read Nick Regerio's book and also your book has actually opened cans of worms for me , but only because it's opened issues that I'm ready now to deal with and actually talk about comfortably which is great for me , I think , with Shauna , listening to her talking about it and to hear you talking about how good your relationship is with her . You've been lucky that you've actually come across someone who you have such a good relationship with , absolutely .

Speaker 1 27:30

I mean and , like you said , I believe everything happens for a reason . To go back to your point about having the right therapist , somebody who truly understands us , because we're very unique and everything that we've been through and everything that we do and we see and experience I talked about this in the book but when I was actually started my recovery , I didn't know Doc Springer and I went and saw another therapist On the very first day of our meeting . She did something very , very critical , very crucial . She shared a very deep , dark , personal story of something that happened to her many years earlier and how she recovered from that . When she shared that story , she instantly had my trust and I knew that I could trust her with my life .

Speaker 1 28:22

I knew more importantly and I can't say it here , but what she'd been through is worse than anything I could ever imagine To see this strong , brave , kind woman in front of me that was there to help me , who had moved on and had a whole new life . She was living proof that this was possible and I knew if she could do it , I could do it . Because of that , I knew I could open up to her . I could tell her anything and everything , and it is critical , it is key . I encourage people if you haven't found that right therapist , keep looking because there is one out there and don't settle for anything less . You have to have a trusted , comfortable relationship with your therapist where you know they have your back to the fullest .

Speaker 2 29:09

I think , michael as well , you've probably been lucky . You had one . She opened up , she gave you a story which actually gave you the confidence to work with her . I know people who have tried a therapist . It hasn't worked . But the trauma of having to literally go back over the story again with someone new is something that people go . I can't be bothered with , I just can't deal with it or I can't do it . But it's really important that if you sit down and do three or four sessions with someone and you realize that there's no chemistry or it's not the right person for you , it's important that you do start again with somebody else , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 29:46

Absolutely . I've experienced both those things . It's like people Sometimes you mesh with people , sometimes you get along with people , sometimes you don't . We see this on the street , where I may be on a call , I may have a cover officer , I may be covering them and , for whatever reason , the person we're dealing with doesn't like me , but they're willing to talk to my partner , or vice versa , and this is normal . I realize that this is normal , and just because somebody referred you to a counselor or psychologist or psychiatrist and raved about them , how good they were . If you don't think so , if you don't feel comfortable with them , move on . Don't waste your time , because that's exactly what you're doing . Is you're wasting your time If you're just going through the motions ? Oh God , yeah , I mean , if you're going there just to check the box , you're not doing yourself any favors .

Speaker 2 30:36

If you just go to check a box , you're doing yourself a complete nutty disservice , because there's some quality out there that can really help people . Now I just want to move on from that . There is a culture of brotherhood in both the military and also as a law enforcement officer . Now you've experienced

Brotherhood in Military and Law Enforcement

Speaker 2 30:54

both at length . I think six and a half years in the military is enough for you to have a qualified position here . Then I think you spent a further 13 years , from memory , with the Walnut Creek Police Department . Is that correct ?

Speaker 1 31:08

About 14 years , just a little bit less than 14 .

Speaker 2 31:10

14 years . That's right , I knew it was close . In your own words , can you compare the brotherhood of the two ?

Speaker 1 31:16

I think , if you're talking about the actual people that you're out there with every single day , your actual partners on the street , I think that there is true brotherhood . I think there's camaraderie . I think there's friendship , both the military and in law enforcement , where I see the real differences in the management or the administration . To me in the military and again this is just my opinion , my experience that there's actually people there that care about you . They care about your families . They really want to get to know you . They want to get to know your family . It's more of a lifestyle , it's more of a family environment , it's all inclusive . There's many more family functions and spouse functions . They really encourage the community aspects .

Speaker 1 32:05

In law enforcement , especially in my case , in many people's cases you commute to work , you work in these crazy hours and you just want to go home . For law enforcement officers you see everybody at the beginning of shift and the end of shift . The majority of the time you're by yourself in your patrol car . You may go to a call , you may make a stop . Then an officer shows up . You see somebody for a short amount of time , but it's not the same . Especially when it comes to the administration or the management , I see them much more as like running a business insurance brokerage or retail operation . I don't see them as investing in their people as the military does .

Speaker 2 32:48

I could not agree more . This is where law enforcement has completely lost its way . It's not a business and it can't be run as a business . It needs to be run paramilitary organization rank structure and work that way . There's too much influence from outside . The next thing I want to say and ask you about is we see organizational chiefs actually worldwide standing at press conferences and putting out public statements now around supporting their staff with mental health . They want people . It's okay to talk about this Mental health . We support members with mental health . We support officers . Is this what's actually going on behind the scenes , within , from what you actually see ?

Speaker 1 33:29

No , I had a laugh at that because and I speak all over the United States but , ironically enough , most times when I speak it's not for an agency Most police chiefs do not want me coming into the organization and talking about these realities . I see a lot of leaders , so-called leaders , like you said putting the lip service out there on the news or having policies and things in place that nobody uses . They're checking the box , but they don't encourage a culture of wellness , they don't encourage a culture of people actually talking about these issues . And I'll tell you a couple real stories if you got a sec here . One of them thank God , this person's now retired .

Speaker 1 34:12

So before we published this book , we reached out to a bunch of military and law enforcement leaders across the nation and just said hey , would you be willing to read this manuscript and just give us your honest , no-hold barred feedback about what you think about it , if you like it , if you're willing to give us a short blurb that we can use on the cover inside the book ? And so one of them . There's only one of them . I contacted this person and at the time they were an acting chief or a large organization and upfront when I started telling this chief about what this book was about . He shouldn't have told me . He's like look , I don't know if I'm the best person to actually read this . He goes because I don't really believe in post-traumatic stress . I think a lot of people are faking this . I think it's a lot of BS . And I said no , chief . I said actually , you're the perfect person to read this book . I said because I honestly think that it's going to change your perception . I think it's going to open your eyes . And so this person agrees to read it .

Speaker 1 35:13

And a couple weeks later , we reach out to check on the progress . We're waiting to get these endorsements back and get feedback before we publish . And so we get them all back , except for this one chief Hit them up and he's like hey , I'm almost done , I'm halfway done , I'll be done by the end of the weekend . Cool , okay . So we wait a week , don't hear anything . Wait another week , don't hear anything . Finally , we send an email no response . Wait another week . Send an email no response . I call , leave a voicemail , no response . Text , no response .

Speaker 1 35:45

And we're literally waiting to publish this book on this one person to get back to us and it's like hey , if you don't like it , that's fine , but tell me why you don't like it . Give me your real critique . This is what I want . I didn't ask you to sugarcoat it . I didn't ask you to just tell me what I want to hear . I want your honest thoughts on this . And this chief just absolutely ghosted me . So , finally , I send this chief a text message . I was so pissed I don't care who this person was and I said you know what ? I can't believe how you've treated me . I said you know the fact that you can't even respond to our messages . This is unacceptable . Well , guess what ? That chief called me within a minute of me sending that nasty text , proceeded to yell at me and hung up the phone on me , never heard from them again .

Speaker 1 36:33

This is the reality because and again , there's great chiefs out there . Okay , there's great leaders out there . I know many of them and I applaud them , I praise them . We need more of them . But here's the deal At the time , this was a chief running a very large organization with hundreds of people under their command , and when you have a chief who doesn't believe in post-traumatic stress , who in the hell in their agency is ever going to raise their hand and ask for help when they know the people at the top think it's a bunch of BS and the fact is that's what's causing suicides , and suicides in the United States is the number one killer .

Speaker 1 37:15

For all first responders and especially law enforcement , we have the highest numbers year over year over year . And this is the reality . And we need real leaders who can be honest , transparent and vulnerable , because you know what , no one's perfect and we need those leaders to step up and share the struggles they've had and how they overcame them and to show their people that this is normal and that there is help , there is hope , and that's what we need . We need leaders to step up and start doing the real work , not doing this bullshit lip service , because that's what I'm seeing , that's what I'm hearing and I'm pissed off and I'm sorry if I seem a little elevated here , but you hit a nerve , because this is a fact and this is what needs to change . We need leaders who are more worried about their people than catering to politicians .

Speaker 2 38:14

Totally agree with you there and do not apologize , michael , for that at all because I want to hear that passion . I want people to hear the passion , because I know that this is going to hit raw nerves for a lot of people . Here's a story for you that will really hit another one . 15 months ago now , I appeared as a guest on a podcast , and the name of the podcast is Challenges that Change Us . I don't know what caused it , but I literally just opened up . It was like your podcast in 2019 . It was the moment that you opened up and you just went bang and , all of a sudden , everything just ran for you from there .

Speaker 2 38:52

Really well , in September of 2022 , there was a podcast that was published that I guest on , where I spoke about my own challenge . I didn't name my agency , I didn't name anything at all . I just spoke about my PTSD , I spoke about my depression , I spoke about my anxiety , I spoke about anodonia , how I was really struggling , and I'll be brutally honest with you , michael , I actually broke down . I got quite tearful through the podcast because it wasn't something that I was expecting to talk about , but I actually opened up and talked about it at the time , and the person that I was speaking to was actually a therapist . She's the host of the podcast . Unbeknownst to me what I was doing , and the purpose of this podcast was actually to discuss and talk about mental health and how damaging it was . But what I did you're going to remember .

Speaker 2 39:43

The title of the podcast is the Challenges that Change Us , and I went on then to talk about how I had to , unsupported , find my own way out of that and what I've done to find my own way out of it , to help other people , just like you're doing with your book . I wanted to help other people out of it and I wanted to actually show people . It's not the end of the world . You can go through all of this and you can actually find something that will find your way out of it . And I can tell you in December of last year in a letter to I've got to be careful what I say here .

Speaker 2 40:19

But that podcast was actually used against me to try and get rid of me . That won't surprise you , I know it won't surprise you . They forgot to mention that I spoke about my mental health and how I had found my way out of it . What they did was they actually tried to use it to show that I'm incapable of doing the role anymore , and that's exactly what happened . I have responded to All and Sundry and anyone that will listen and said thank you for listening to that podcast and , considering the podcast was actually published in September of 2022 , can you advise me what it was that you actually did once you heard that ? Because you heard one of your own really struggling . What did you actually do ? So what we've done is we've demonized talking about mental health , and they used it as a weapon .

Speaker 1 41:10

It doesn't surprise me , but I'll tell you , thank God you did that because that was a life changing moment for you and that's led you on the path that you're on now and you're helping countless lives , I mean , around the world . You know , you're setting the example to show this can be done and I'm not going to let anybody

First Responders' Mental Health Awareness

Speaker 1 41:34

stop me . I don't care who you are . No , because my life is greater than this job and now , helping other people . Their lives is more important than whatever they think about you .

Speaker 1 41:52

And trust me , I mean , there's people in my agency who would not even acknowledge me if I passed them in the hallway . But here's the thing is , I've kind of reframed how I look at this is those people are suffering and they're not dealing with their own issues , they're pushing it away and honestly , those are the people that need the most help and I hope they get it . Yeah , you know , I don't wish any ill will on them . I just hope they get to a point , before it's too late , that they realize they need help and that they get the strength and courage , like you did .

Speaker 2 42:23

They don't realize they actually need the help . And it isn't until people like yourself and myself , when you step away and decompress and look back in , you then realize , oh my God , I needed help so much long before I actually did and I put my hand up . But what these people are doing and the ones that are actually listening to this podcast and I always thank them because I know they stalk my podcast I know they listen and I thank them for listening to the podcast for me , talking about it and adding to the algorithm of the plays in the podcast , because I'm still here and I'm still doing what I'm doing . But what I'm actually doing is I'm helping other people . To make it not a stigma to talk about it . It's okay . Here am I on a public platform and I did this 15 months ago or 14 months ago . I did this , I spoke about it on the platform and I spoke about my mental health and journey back and people see me now on my stories and posting and everything looks fantastic . But there's a lot that goes on in the background . You know that and I see you posting and I see you sharing and wanting to help people . It's your vocation now . Everything for a reason , as you said , what they've done is they've actually supported you in what you need to do right now . I hope you're enjoying the show . If you are , please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished . This helps the shows reach enormously .

Speaker 2 43:56

And have you got my free ebook the best way to eat on night shift ? Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast , why we should fast and how to best go about it . I've even included a few recipes to help you . I've put a link to the ebook in the show notes . And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next ? Well , I've got you . If you would like to work with me , I can coach you to thrive , not just survive , while undertaking the rigors of 24 seven shift work . I also conduct in-house live health and wellbeing seminars where I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence based information to help your wellbeing team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace . I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned . You can find me at a healthy shift dot com or on Instagram at a underscore healthy , underscore shift .

Speaker 2 44:57

Now let's get back to the show . This is not bitter and twisted Michael screaming out for help . This is Michael going . Okay , this is the problem . Let's make it normal to talk about it . You've actually got the stats . I know because you keep a record of it yourself . So we here in Australia think of American and there's a lot of shootings and we get officer involved shootings and we get shootings that people have been involved in and we obviously get these active shooter situations as well . But give us the stats on the first responders that have taken their own lives compared to people that have been taken by offenders .

Speaker 1 45:37

I don't know the numbers for right now but I can tell you roughly for last year . You know the numbers are different depending on the source but according to first help , which is a nonprofit based here in the United States , they track numbers for firefighters , dispatchers , paramedics , police officers I believe we had roughly about 129 reported police suicides . But I will tell you that that number is very greatly under reported and the real number I my estimate is three to four times higher . You know , the numbers are staggering and the thing is those numbers are down . So you know the previous years have been much higher . I know two or three years ago I think the numbers were up in like 220s , 230 ranges of just law enforcement again reported suicides .

Speaker 1 46:27

But here's something else to think about is you know how often is an on duty accident like , let's say , a vehicle crash

First Responders and Mental Health Stigma

Speaker 1 46:33

on duty for a police officer , you know solo , crash into a tree , into a sound wall ? The officer is not wearing their seatbelt . Now my question to you is is that an accident or is it a suicide ? And the answer is it could be either or right . I mean , sometimes it's an accident , sometimes it's a suicide .

Speaker 1 46:54

But if an officer dies in the line of duty , their family is taken care of . Their family gets benefits . Here in the United States , you know , they get taken care of for the rest of their life . If an officer dies by suicide , the family gets nothing , they're not taken care of . And so just even with that simple fact , I mean think about the dilemma that if you're , let's say , on duty and you come across this crash of an officer and it's a horrible accident , do you really want to dig deep down into that to see if it was a suicide or not ? Of course you don't , because now you're going to screw the family Family is not going to have any resources , no benefits , and so you don't do it . And I don't blame them for not doing it . But my point to that is we have a lot more suicides than we think , a lot more .

Speaker 2 47:43

I'll just take you back to a point in your own book there , michael . Had you have made that decision at the time that you did to step back into the traffic because that was going over in your mind a number of times I could literally just step back into the traffic here and put myself out of pain and you've mentioned this in the book Everyone would have been so sad because it was an accident . But it wouldn't have been an accident , would it ? So what you're saying is not being bitter and twisted and trying to put a spin on something . You're actually speaking from your own experience of . You literally had to battle with yourself to stop yourself from stepping back into the traffic , didn't you ?

Speaker 1 48:19

Absolutely . And here's the point . I never had an active plan to take my own life , to kill myself off duty . But here's another thing to think about is how many officers decide that you know what , today I'm not going to wear my bulletproof vest . Today I'm not going to wear my seatbelt . Today I'm going to get to that horrible call as fast as I can . I'm going to beat everyone else there to it . I'm not going to wait for my cover officer . And that's the thing is . I want people to think about this because I've actually met a lot of officers who confided in me . They told me the exact same thing , where they said you know , I didn't want to die , but I didn't care if I did . And so I put my officer safety , my tactics aside and I went out there and I just did the job . And if it happened , if it was my day , so be it .

Speaker 2 49:14

I can totally understand that as well . It's not a plan , it's just if it happens . It happens , it's my number , it's my day , michael . Why is there such a stigma of mental health amongst first responders ? Because I know it's common and it's worldwide . You know we're all big chest-beating , too strong for this and too strong for that . What's your understanding of why there is such a stigma around it ?

Speaker 1 49:35

I'd say it's the same reasons as for the military , because , you know , we're expected to be warriors , we're expected to be the strongest , bravest , most courageous people out there . We're the ones that when you call 911 , you know we're the only ones that are coming . There is nobody else . For whatever reason , I think it's been ingrained in both cultures that you know , we don't show our feelings , we don't show our emotions , we don't talk about these things , we brush everything off , Nothing bothers us and we go out there and we take care of business . And that starts in the academy , it starts in boot camp for the military .

Speaker 1 50:14

And this kind of machismo , this mentality , which you know what , there is a purpose for it and you do have to have that mentality when it comes to responding to calls .

Speaker 1 50:26

You know active shooter situations , domestic violence calls , big bar brawls , I mean you name it . You have to have that courage and strength to go into these situations and not hesitate and save lives , and even if it means your life being taken to save others . You know that's what we do . But why is it that we can't ? You know , after we've gone to these calls , after we've taken care of business and we're away from the scene , why can't we step back , decompress and just acknowledge . Just talk about how bad that was , how horrific it was , how you couldn't sleep for three nights , how you've had constant nightmares , you know . Like I said , just acknowledge the humanity of what we have to see and deal with , Because we can still be badasses , we can still be warriors , we can still be the bravest of the bravest and we can still acknowledge our feelings and emotions and the humanity of what we do at the exact same time .

Speaker 2 51:24

So well articulated . I ran a seminar actually in Queensland last year , which is a Northern state . I heard a lecture from a detective sergeant talking about checking in on your friends , checking in on your mates , and he said that the conversation needs to be to go to someone and be vulnerable yourself . Like he would talk about going to someone and saying , Michael , that job yesterday that we did , that was huge , wasn't it ? You know , Michael goes , that was nothing , it was fine . Well , geez , you know I've actually had trouble sleeping . Are you sure that you're okay ? Like you have had no trouble with that at all . And that's how people open up .

Speaker 1 52:03

Exactly . You've got to set the example , and this is what I was talking about the leaders . How can you expect anyone to come to you and open up to you if you're not willing to do the same ? It's like I said with that therapist that opened up to me on day one without me sharing anything . She opened up first and that's what led me to know that I could open up to her . And the thing is , this is so easy , like the answer and the solutions to all of this . It's easy , it's basic , but we can't do it . It's too difficult . There's excuses . I say it's BS and we've got to change the culture . We've got to change it now and that's why , if anybody's listening to this , if you're a training officer , if you're in any kind of leadership , supervisory role , it starts with you and you can be the one that can help change this .

Speaker 2 52:55

And you've spoken to yourself about that therapist opening up and being vulnerable . I can't a leader and we call them a leader because that's what they're supposed to be they're being paid to lead , they're being paid to manage . Well , I can't a leader open up and be vulnerable themselves . I've had incidents , but this is how I've recovered from it . You know what I did , this and this is what happened , but you know what , rod , there's a way out of this . This is what we can do . This is how we can help . This is what we can do instead of PTSD . Give me a break . Here's another one off on PTSD . Yeah , no worries at all . And this brings me to the next thing too .

Speaker 2 53:33

Now , ptsd is a term that's used all the time , michael , and your book has flagged with me how we need to change this , and I know you're a big advocate for this and I'm going to stand right as your wingman on this , because I agree . I think the association with PTSD worldwide , particularly in police agencies now , is that you're broken , you're done and that's the end of you . How quickly can we get rid of you ? End of story , right ? You're a massive advocate for PTSD and I really , really would like you to explain to us why we need to rephrase it to either PTSD or we reframe it to PTSD , because I'm right in your corner on this as a wingman .

Speaker 1 54:15

Absolutely so . I firmly believe it should be post-traumatic stress injury versus disorder . It's that last word that's the key , because the word disorder has a very negative connotation to it . It makes you feel powerless . It makes you feel like it's just something that you have , that you're stuck with , that you can't get rid of . Like I said , it just has a very negative connotation .

Speaker 1 54:37

Now , an injury is something that can be treated . It can be healed , you can recover . Now , this is a medical fact . There's been doctors , scientists , people who have studied brain mapping , brain imaging . People that are exposed to traumatic events , especially repeated traumatic events , have a chemical and physical change to the human brain . It's an undisputed fact . I'm not a medical doctor , but these are proven medical facts . It's also proven that there's things that you can do to help recover , to change the chemistry , the physical part of the brain . That can be done with a myriad of different things , and different things work for different people .

Speaker 1 55:23

I want to equate this to let's say somebody has so many firefighters and police officers have bad knees , they have bad shoulders , they have bad backs . Usually we suck it up , but then we get to the point where we're like you know what I'm in ? So much pain . I can't deal with this anymore . I need to get help . You go see the doctor . They at first prescribe some pain medications , say take a couple of days off . If that's not working , okay , let's try injections , physical therapy maybe . If that's not working , let's try surgery , more physical therapy .

Speaker 1 55:57

My point is there's a roadmap to recovery . Your back , knee or shoulder may never be the same as it was before that injury , but it's going to be better than when you're suffering the same thing with post-traumatic stress injury . You're never going to be the same person that you were before post-traumatic stress injury . But I'll take that a step further and say you'll never be the same person you were before you started your career , either in the military or as a first responder , because it changes you . But there's things that you can do to make you better , to get you better , to live a better life . We can widely accept a physical injury , right when it comes to our knee , our back , our shoulder . Well , guess what people ? An injury to the brain is a physical injury . There is treatment , there's things that we can do to get better . It gives you hope and it shows that you're not stuck with this . That's the key . That's why we need to get rid of the word disorder and replace it with injury .

Speaker 2 56:58

in my opinion , that is absolutely , perfectly articulated . Again , you're good at this . You've done this before . This is why I wanted to ask you , because I totally agree with you on this . That's why I wanted people to hear it in your words , from you , because I know how well you do articulate this . I know people will be nodding and agreeing with you on this , because disorder I know people think PTSD , that's it , he's done , he's gone , no worries , how can we get rid of him ? Let's fill the position , because we're only going to put another bum in the seat .

Speaker 2 57:28

You said from the outset of this that you recognize that you were just a number and you're not as important as what you may have thought . You were to your department as well , and we're all in exactly the same position there . If it's an injury , I have no doubt in my mind that , managers and leaders , if Michael Segru has got PTSD and he's diagnosed with PTSD , an injury process starts to recover from the injury , whereas PTSD is something that you're done , that's it , that's the end of it . Insurers and everybody can look at it from an injury perspective . Like you said , you've done your back , you've done your knee . We'd look at it from there , but it just isn't that way .

Speaker 2 58:07

As I said to you before , I'm right in your corner about working on this and changing it . I've had these discussions with a few doctors and I know here in Australia it's very PTSD is the clinical term , and it's obviously the same in the US at the moment too . But I do notice that a lot of people like yourself that are doing what you're doing are actually just referring to it as PTSD or PTSD , and I think this is where the conversation changes , from people just stopping short of calling it PTSD as a disorder where you're discarded . What is recovery from PTSD look like ? And I know you're probably going to talk about the stellar ganglion block here , which is something that I really want you to talk about as well .

Speaker 1 58:47

You know it's different for everybody and , in my opinion , the longer that you wait to get help , the longer your recovery process is going to be .

Speaker 1 58:54

What I want people to understand is that you have to have an open mind , because not everything works for everybody , and what may work for me may not work for you .

Speaker 1 59:04

I'll give you a simple example . So there's something called EMDR , which is a very common technique that is used by therapist clinicians . I learned about it in a program I went through and it didn't work for me , but I've seen it work for people time and time again , and so my point is that you have to have an open mind . You know , if it works for your buddy but doesn't work for you , don't give up . Try something else , try something new . Now for me , I'll tell you what my personal recovery looks like . You know it started out with a culturally competent clinician , a therapist , who I saw every single week . I went to a psychologist once a month . I learned about first responder support meetings , which were these confidential , just discussion meetings with other first responders . I went to that every single week . I ended up going through the West Coast Post Trauma Treat , a week long program for first responders . I went through another program called Sable Warrior to deal with my childhood trauma , which is a whole other issue because many first responders and military members have some form of childhood trauma . I tried medication , more therapy . That was my recovery and in with that , meditation , journaling , gratitude exercise again . It's a combination of things . The key to it is that you have to have an open mind , you have to try different things .

Speaker 1 1:00:36

The Stella Gangling block that you mentioned I'd never heard of it , honestly , until Doc Springer called me back in

Stella Ganglion Block for PTSD Recovery

Speaker 1 1:00:43

2019 when we had that introductory phone conversation and , I'll be honest with you , when she told me about it , I was like okay , I didn't tell her this . But in my mind I was like , yeah , this seems too good to be true . I've never heard of this . And so I started doing my own research . I started looking online . I actually found out there's a 60 minutes episode which had been done several years earlier , in talking about combat veterans who had had this procedure done . Well , stella Gangling block , it turns out , has been around for over 100 years .

Speaker 1 1:01:13

The actual procedure it's used as a pain block and it's basically where an anesthesiologist , a medical doctor , puts an anesthetic , a common anesthetic , which is commonly used in , like childbirth and delivery , and they stick it in a specific bundle of nerves in your neck very quick , very easy , virtually painless procedure and it helps with the pain block . Well , years ago , a doctor discovered by accident that it actually could be used to treat the physical symptoms of post-traumatic stress injury . So I want people to understand that this isn't a cure for post-traumatic stress injury , but the whole purpose is it's to reduce or lessen those like fight or flight symptoms , like the feelings of where your heart starts racing , where you feel like an anger outburst or like rage or you feel like you need a run or like a startle reflex . You know those types of things . And so I went and had the procedure done myself after doing my research and I talked to several people that had it done , and the procedure was done by a doctor . Like I said , I didn't feel any pain and immediately I noticed a difference . And again , everyone's experience is different . I think the overall rate is like 75 to 80% of people who normally they just do one injection , but if that doesn't work , they do it on the right side . If that doesn't work , they do a second one , like a day or two later on the left side . If you combine both those procedures it's like a 75 , 80% effective rate of people's physical symptoms being lessened or reduced .

Speaker 1 1:02:52

But here's the key you can't just go get the shot and be cured from PTSD or PTSD . It doesn't work that way . You need to be doing talk therapy , you know , going to group meetings , emdr , equine therapy , whatever it is . But you know it's not just a quick shot and you're cured of PTSD . I don't want people to think that it's just helping with the physical symptoms so that you can focus on the recovery process , that you can actually be in a physical state where you can sit in a therapist's office and you can talk to them , you can have discussions .

Speaker 1 1:03:27

You know that's the key to this and there's lots of research out there . Again , you can just Google it , but it's Stella Ganglian Block or SGB and Doc Springer . She actually is the chief clinical psychologist for Stella , based out of Chicago , and Chicago trains doctors worldwide , including in Australia , on how to do this procedure . And here's the cool part is , when you get it done , you don't have to share your trauma story . You don't have to open up and share all that you've been through with this doctor because the doctor is a medical doctor . They're doing a physical procedure . They're not there to counsel you or to provide therapy , so you don't have to be worried about being vulnerable or reliving your therapy when you get this done .

Speaker 2 1:04:15

Fabulous . To explain to people in simple terms what Michael spoke about there as well is we have an autonomous nervous system which has two sides to it . One's the parasympathetic side , the other one's the sympathetic side . I would liken having a Stella Ganglian Block to taking a pandadol when you've got a headache . It masks the headache , but it's not actually solving the headache problem . But it allows you to function and I think this is what the Stella Ganglian Block does . It actually stops you from going into this sympathetic side and keeps you in a parasympathetic side , which gives you the opportunity to just talk about and deal with it . Is that correct , michael ?

Speaker 1 1:04:54

Absolutely , and it's the amygdala , or the primitive part of the human brain , and that's where we get those symptoms , those fight or flight symptoms , and that's where it works to reduce those symptoms . But , like you said , you're still fully functional . And one question that's come up is hey , is this going to lessen my edge ? Is this going to not allow me to do my work , whether it's in the military or first responder ? And the answer is it's not going to affect that at all . It's not going to lessen your edge . You're going to be fully operational . There's no adverse side effects . I highly recommend people looking into it .

Speaker 2 1:05:32

That's just a great recommendation as well , and that was going to be my next question . You could literally have this SGB and go back to work . It's a recovery from an injury . It helps you to then talk it through without the trauma , so you could literally go back to work with it , correct ?

Speaker 1 1:05:50

Correct . But what they recommend is that you take two days to just relax . Theoretically , yeah , you could go back to work right away , but the thing is that you're going to notice some things right away , but some things may take up to a week to notice the effectiveness or the results of the shot . But , yes , you can go back to work Again . I'm not a medical doctor , but what they do recommend is take two days off and then you can go fully back to work .

Speaker 2 1:06:15

Amazing . That's fantastic . What a great outcome for people . I was offered EMDR myself as well . I personally didn't think I was that bad who knows Down the track may be but it was an option that was offered to me EMDR but they wanted me to stay in for 14 days to deal with it . They wanted me to do it full time and I didn't feel like I needed that at the time . So I've saved that for people who know are critical and need that . So , michael , I want to move into . In your book you discuss a savage betrayal in your life . Now , in my opinion , all the way through the book , it was a domino effect of savage betrayals personally , but you've brought awareness to such important terms that I think are important and people are going to understand and relate to as such , as administrative betrayal and institutional betrayal as well . Can you explain more about this to help people to understand what administrative betrayal is and what institutional betrayal is ?

Speaker 1 1:07:09

It's important to mention . First is that this ties into the childhood trauma that I briefly mentioned . Let me take a step back and then I'll answer that question directly . I was in denial of this , but what I found through my own experience personally and through my volunteer work is that many first responders and military members have some form of childhood trauma . Now let me qualify that . It can be on the very minor end of the scale . It could be a parent that was basically working all the time they're providing but they're not home . Maybe they weren't affectionate , maybe they weren't emotional , maybe they're distant . In my case it was a biological father who was a drug addict and alcoholic who wasn't there for me . I had abandonment issues . On the severe end of the spectrum , some people deal with physical abuse , sexual abuse , mental abuse , but these adverse childhood experiences actually , believe it or not , make us very good at what we do . These are very good first responders and at a young age we learn to become resilient , to adapt , to overcome , to be decisive . The problem is that we never address that childhood trauma . Then fast forward in our lives . We're now these very successful go-getter first responders , military members . Now we're these warriors , these badasses , where we're untouchable . Nothing's going to phase us . We're not going to go back and ever think about even that child that I talked about . In my case , I forgot about it . I literally put it behind me . I moved on with my life .

Speaker 1 1:08:45

Where the admin or institutional betrayal comes in is that for many of us , we seek out the military and the first responder world . It's kind of like a new family and we believe it's a family . Initially . They are , they have our back , they're there for us , everything's great , they're providing for us , they're looking out for us . But then there comes a moment where we need them most .

Speaker 1 1:09:09

In my case , it was when I was off work and I was trying to get better with my goal to come back . I was doing everything I could to come back . It was when an administrator then basically tried to talk me into retiring and then started making my life very difficult after that when I told him I didn't want to retire . This is my life , this is what I want to do . I'm doing what I can . I'm going to come back . But it wasn't fast enough for them . Now I had that childhood trauma with my father that I never dealt with . I have since . Now I've got this new family , this new administrator who I believed in , I looked up to , who is now abandoning me again .

Speaker 1 1:09:53

Now look at it like this we have our childhood trauma . On top of that , we have what I would call street trauma or battlefield trauma . It's the horrific things that we see and deal with at work . On top of that is institutional betrayal , admin betrayal or moral injury . These are different layers that all need to be addressed . They're all different , but they intertwine . They need to be dealt with separately . In my case , right away I dealt with the street stuff . That's what I was focused on . I'm going to talk about the shooting , I'm going to talk about these child deaths , these horrible things . But then eventually it was like oh wait , a minute . No , you know what's really bothering me the most ? It's the admin betrayal , it's the institutional betrayal . Then I started realizing where did this all start ? Right , it goes back to that childhood trauma . Yeah , it's intertwined . They're all different , but they're all related at the same time .

Speaker 2 1:10:56

My own experience of this is very personal and , once again , I can't go into too much in relation to it at this point in time , but I certainly are going to in time . But let me just say this year I feel the situation in your family . Years ago you were a victim of a circumstance and it wasn't personal and then the things that you saw while you were working on the road , they're not personal . You were a witness to them . That it wasn't targeted at you , but I honestly believe that the reason why we suffer so badly from administrative or institutional betrayal Is because it is personal , it's directed directly at us and I think that's why it hurts most . That's my opinion .

Speaker 1 1:11:40

I don't disagree with you , we can deal with Bad things on the street . We can deal with bad things on the battlefield , right ? I mean , we almost Expect it , we anticipate it , we train for it actually . But , like you said , this admin betrayal , institutional betrayal , it hits us when we're least expecting us and it's kind of like the Elephant in the room or the dirty little secret that nobody wants to talk about .

Speaker 1 1:12:08

But it turns out that and I learned this that there were people in my inner circle , my peers , you know , other sergeants , other officers , who I didn't know at the time , but they were all getting shafted as well . Right , because they're dealing with their admin betrayal issues but , like all of us were ordered usually not to talk about it . You know , they say , hey , you know what this is , what's happening , and we're ordering you to not discuss this with anybody . And that's how they keep this a secret . Right , because then we don't talk about it . We think we're the only one . It's the board and conca , the whole lot it is . And then what I found through this book ? And I get messages almost daily of people telling me their Admin betrayal or institutional betrayal stories . And , like you said , because it's so personal , that's what affects people the most . And Again , to go back to it , you know the horrific things we see . It does cause damage , it does cause issues , but in my humble opinion , that thing that pushes people over that edge , over that cliff , is that admin betrayal , institutional betrayal .

Speaker 2 1:13:13

That's exactly right . And police departments worldwide Are literally hemorrhaging staff at unprecedented rates at the moment . Like it's crazy , we have officers that have literally had enough now and are leaving of their own free will , which was unheard of . You know , when you signed up and you started , you were here forever . That's it . You would never think of leaving . You would just keep on going until your 30 years or your retirement came or you got to that age and you just loved it , you just thrived . And I remember when I started looking at people at way ahead of me , thinking , god , you know , like so much experience and it's amazing . And I looked up to them and they were incredible people and but now we're leaving .

Speaker 2 1:13:56

But we must acknowledge and do something about the officers that we're losing in the unthinkable ways . As a foremost , don't we , like we just can't have leadership , stand there and say how sad this is Any longer , with the blind ignorance of what their actual contributing role is to the hemorrhaging and the officer um death ? Absolutely , it's time that we stood up and we did something about it . I don't know what we don't want to target and don't get me wrong here , to anybody that's listening to this this is not a campaign to slaughter people in management . It's not . It's to bring awareness of what their role actually is .

Speaker 2 1:14:32

We lost two police officers here in a week and it's been disastrous , like for everybody involved when we have officer involved shootings . What I think the public don't realize is as well . Generally we lose those members as well through you know the trauma of what

Challenges in Law Enforcement Support

Speaker 2 1:14:49

they've actually dealt with . Even though you battled on , we've lost you to the service where you could have continued on doing what you are actually doing , and that's not through the trauma of it , it's through public pressure , media pressure and pressure from management . There's no support to actually support you . Well , they give you a pat on the back and support you at the time and then after that it becomes that administrative betrayal . I think that's the worst thing . Michael , in your opinion , do you think policing worldwide can actually recover ?

Speaker 1 1:15:18

Oh , that's , that's a very difficult question , and I think what it's going to take , honestly , it's going to take more support from the public , from the people in our communities who aren't , you know , first responders , who aren't police officers , who are going to have to have our backs , who are going to have to understand how much we're needed and how important it is that , if we're healthy and that if we're treated well , and that , if we're allowed to , you know , manage our mental health , our physical health , that it's going to be , you know , much better for them . You know much less erroneous use of force , much less bad shootings . It's a domino effect . But we can't do it on our own , and I think that most of us feel like we're on an island . We feel like most police chiefs these days are actually politicians . They've kind of forgotten about the job they swore to do where they came from , and they're more worried about their political careers and other ventures . And so I hate to say it , but it's going to take a very long time before that happens , if it's even possible .

Speaker 2 1:16:29

I totally agree with you and I think I'm not a hundred percent sure . If management , command Chiefs are literally aware of the problem , I think it's diabolical now I really do , because they don't realize just how many people are just teetering on the edge and there could be a mass exodus . They'll open the gates and there'll be like lemmings , it'll be one after the other that will literally just be jumping off the cliff and I think this is the tragedy of where we're actually at today and it's a problem and I know because you've been involved and you've spoken about it and I want people once again to hear you talk about all of this in the book . But the media manipulates a lot of this too , and I think the media dictate back to the politically correct command and I think command then bow to media pressure of what the media is saying and the public are believing what the media is telling them as well , and I think the media could paint Law enforcement in a really , really good light and chiefs could stand there and go no , you are not talking to my officers like that . You're not treating them like that . I will not have any of this , and we see this sometimes on our social media .

Speaker 2 1:17:36

Here we see some chiefs stand up there and go . How dare you speak about my officers like that ? How would you like to go and deal with that ? How would you like to get out there ? And we all stand and clap and everyone shares it around , but we don't generally get that . What we do get is everyone's listening to the media , waiting to see what they've got to say , and it goes up to command and the public listen . And then all of a sudden that , as you said , on the island , the police on the island , the law enforcement officers , are standing on the island with their back to the solo palm tree and they're coming at them from everywhere , aren't they ? They're coming at them from the public , they're coming at them from the media . Their administration is coming at them .

Speaker 1 1:18:14

There's no support anywhere at all and it's really causing a big problem in law enforcement today and it's got to change , absolutely has to change and that's why we're here today , that's why you know we're having this discussion and that's why we wrote this book Is that people need to wake up and realize what's really going on .

Speaker 2 1:18:31

Yeah , they absolutely do . Now , Michael , I just want to wrap this up now with this . I'm just so indebted and appreciative of your time . I know it's the evening

The Power of Relentless Courage

Speaker 2 1:18:38

time there , so the book for everybody is relentless courage . It's written by Michael , who's the guest , obviously , and shawna . Doc springer , who's a phd .

Speaker 2 1:18:48

I want to just explain in the book that Michael starts off talking about the officer involved shooting and then what he does is Doc springer , in the second half of every chapter , talks about From a clinical perspective the physical and the mental impact that that would have had on Michael From her experience . Right , this is not just about Michael , but it's talking about that this book is really . It's very , very unique . Michael talks about the incident , shawna reflects on it , or doc reflects on it . Fascinating to hear what she says .

Speaker 2 1:19:24

And I think you , as a law enforcement officer , if you are listening to this , get the book , listen to it and then buy it . I'll do that , michael listen to it and buy it so you can get your 28 cents from amazon on the book . But the bottom line is I beg people to actually listen to it . It's a really easy listen . You will hear Michael reliving it , and quite heightened as he relives the incidents that he's going through . Every single chapter is Stepping through the whole thing and Shawna's reflections are absolutely phenomenal and it will answer questions for a lot of you that you didn't realize that you actually had . I know it did for me . It's given me a lot of peace and it hasn't made me feel alone . Michael , talk to me about that now . What exciting things have you got coming up ?

Speaker 1 1:20:09

Yeah , I'll be honest , my primary focus is being a father to my daughter turned 13 recently and the speaking I do a few times a year . You know the book , it's doing phenomenal . I'm kind of riding that wave . You know , the audible version once you just mentioned Hasn't even been out a year . I wish we would have done it sooner .

Speaker 1 1:20:29

But , as you mentioned , it's from our heart , it's in our own voices and it took a lot to record that .

Speaker 1 1:20:36

But people are going to feel the passion , they're going to be there . It's like being in a movie and my long-term goal is that at some point and this is a dream , I don't know if it'll ever happen this book will be turned into a movie and that way we can reach even more people , and when I say movie , I mean like big Hollywood movie , we can reach the general public . We can reach people all over the world and that's my goal is to get this message out To as many people as I possibly can . I do have some speaking engagements coming up here in the United States , like I said before is you know , I really want to go international and so I'm hoping to come to Australia . I actually did an interview in New Zealand a couple hours before this one , and so on . My long-term goal list would be Canada , the UK , australia , new Zealand , to actually speak live in front of my fellow brothers and sisters , and that would be a dream come true , absolutely .

Speaker 2 1:21:37

We would love to have you here as well , and I think the good thing that you've got there is in Australia . It's very different . You don't just hit a small agency , you hit a whole state at once . It'd be like hitting the state of California in one , because it's one police department , and I think that's what makes it very unique . Before we wrap up , then tell us you are public speaking . What is it about your public speaking event ? Let the managers that I know that will be listening to this podcast Maybe , instead of taking offense to what's been said , how about we have a open Think about it and have a listen to what Michael's got to say ? So , michael , what would you be publicly speaking about ? What's the structure ?

Speaker 1 1:22:15

of it . So you know my speaking is my story . You know I show us a short nine minute video Called the stigma of help , which is a short documentary film that I was in . And then I go right into the day Before my shift started because I was working the night shift of my shooting , and I go fully into the officer involved shooting . I go into that process of what happened during the incident , what happened after the incident , back in my police department . I go into the legal process after that , from different hearings To the lawsuit to eventually the federal court proceedings .

Speaker 1 1:22:52

I go into very deep Personal stories about my personal life and the mistakes I made and what ultimately cost my marriage and literally led me to the point where I didn't want to be here anymore . And so I Basically give my story . But then , most importantly , I talked about the event that Pulled me out of the darkness , the event that saved my life and gave me the strength and courage to ask for help . And then I go into my full recovery process and I show people that , no matter how bad it gets , no matter how bad you think it is because I was there , you can get through the other side and I'm living proof of that . And so my story , you know , starts out very dark , but it ends with nothing but light and nothing but hope .

Speaker 2 1:23:38

I just love this , and I think , if leaders aren't going to do it , I think , like police unions and associations would need to do it for their membership , to invite you out to speak To the membership or do something along those lines . Michael , it's a great story and I know I've banged on about the book , but it is . It's a fantastic story and I think the message that you put out there , the message that Nick Regerio is putting out there as well in relation to it I know Nick asked you and he said on the anniversary of the audible book , listen back to it because it will help you . Have you listened back to your own audible version yet ?

Speaker 1 1:24:10

Well , it's not the anniversary yet because it hasn't been out a year . I listened to it when it first came out . What's interesting is that , you know , we went into the studio and recorded it and it wiped me out and I didn't listen to it , honestly , until it actually got published . Doc springer Bless her soul . She actually did the legwork and listen to the entire thing and you know , we went back and had to edit some things and she scrutinized it and I didn't listen to it till I actually bought it myself . I went out on audible , you know I paid for it . I downloaded my own copy .

Speaker 1 1:24:42

I listened to it one time , but I am going to listen to it on the anniversary . That is definitely going to happen and I'm curious to see what the difference is going to be , because I think there will be a difference , but I think the first time I was so exhausted From just doing it , and now that so much time has passed and I know that it's out there , we're getting this great feedback , I think it's going to be a whole new experience . Oh , totally , you should be extremely .

Speaker 2 1:25:07

Extremely proud of yourself . I know you were wiped out . You've spoken about it After doing the audible version and people that listen to the book will understand why you were wiped out , because it's put you back Into all of those situations which would have been extremely Traumatic for you to actually deal with . We won't go on much longer , michael , please tell us . I know you're extremely active on LinkedIn and on your social medias . Just , I'm going to put in the show notes I've got links to your YouTube .

Speaker 2 1:25:34

I've got links to your LinkedIn . I've got links to your Facebook , your Instagram account , I've got links to your Facebook , your Instagram accounts and your TikTok . I'll put all the links in there . You are on absolutely everything social media and not only that , but by golly you are active on every single one of them as well , and you should be fiercely proud of getting that message out there . It's not just the book , it's bringing awareness to the book as well . I'm just extremely humble that you've come on to our podcast to talk to us about it . I know you get a lot of invites and I just appreciate your time . Thank you so much .

Speaker 1 1:26:07

It was truly my pleasure , and I do mean that it was my honor . So thank you for having me , and I hope someday I get to meet you in person and get to speak out there in Australia , so I'm looking forward to it .

Speaker 2 1:26:18

I would be deeply honored to do that . I'd love to get you out here and even just sit at a table over a coffee and just have a chat . Thank you , michael so much . Thank you very much . And that's Michael Sugru . Isn't that just the most incredible story , and isn't he fantastic to listen to ? And he would be an awesome public speaker .

Speaker 2 1:26:35

If your organization is looking for someone to address the issues of mental health in law enforcement or in front line responders , I'll highly recommend you seek Michael out . Michael's extremely active on LinkedIn and social medias as well on his Instagrams , which he runs , and I have put a link to those into the show notes for you , so you can go straight to that and have a look at it . This is an issue that seriously needs addressing by law enforcement and particularly by management . They need to open up and have vulnerable conversations so that they better understand what's going on , because we can't continue the way that we are . If you've got any value out of that , please go over and give Michael a follow . He's someone that if you reach out to through his social medias , he will most definitely respond to you . He is an absolutely fantastic blow , someone who I would call a friend in the US now too amazing .

Speaker 2 1:27:30

As I've told you before , my goal is to really push on into the mental health side of things , especially in time when I can share my own journey and my own battles , which I'm not ready to do at this point in time , and then we will understand exactly why it needs addressing . If you got any value out of it , please make sure you give it a rating and review . And what I would really appreciate Is that episode really should be shared with as many people as you can possibly share it with , because it is a very , very important story and more and more people need to read this book and really benefit from it . You'll hear from me in the next episode . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to a healthy shiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .