Thriving in Shift Work

Speaker 1 0:00

And welcome to another episode of a healthy shift podcast , Our podcast , your podcast , the podcast where I give evidence based strategies to help you thrive and not just survive while performing shift work . Now this is another episode where we have the fully edited audio from my appearance on 3AW on the 8th of February 2024 . And as we come out of the intro , you'll just hear the edited version of the audio . Now , the show went for about an hour and 20 minutes last night , but when it's edited down , it doesn't take long at all to go through . It's got no commercial breaks . It's got no news or any other breaks or anything like that in it . It literally just has Tony and myself talking between those breaks . So there you go . Now , what I would like to do as well is just let you know before we go into this intro .

Speaker 1 0:56

I am actually looking for two clients . At the moment . I have two vacancies for two personal one to one coaching clients . If you're someone who's struggling with shift work , I highly recommend that you at least go into the show notes for this podcast . You can hit the one to one coaching link , which will take you to my website , or go to my website , a healthy shift dot com . Go to the coaching link there and you can complete the form . That actually only takes a few questions . Once you've done that , it will then give you access to my calendar where you can pick a time that suits you to have an half hour discovery call with me During this call .

Speaker 1 1:38

This is where we actually have a discussion to see if we are a good fit for coaching and so that I can help you with simple strategies . This is not a dieting approach . This is not before and after photographs . This is not anything to do with tracking or kitchen bench full of meal prep foods or anything like that . This is literally putting small habits in place and giving you accountability and helping you to navigate problems around shift work . So if this sounds like you or someone that needs help in that area , and let's face it , we all do learn from someone who's done almost four decades of shift work . I can coach you with empathy and also with understanding , and we will work together to find a way that suits you as to how we can go about doing it .

Speaker 1 2:29

And to get much further ado , let's get on with this show . Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , Certified Nutritionist , Veteran Law Enforcement Officer and 24-7 shift worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers using evidence-based methods to not only survive the rigors of shift work , but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and well-being so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show .

Speaker 2 3:16

Let's find out more about this .

Speaker 4 3:17

Here we go .

Speaker 2 3:24

Roger Sutherland is from a healthy shift Roger , a Veteran Law Enforcement close on four decades . Roger coaches shift workers to thrive , not just survive , after working the shift workers . We love shift workers . Roger gives us all more energy to do the things we love outside of shift working lives . Hello Roger .

Speaker 1 3:46

Hello Tony , how are you tonight ?

Speaker 2 3:48

Well , I got to say pretty good , I can't complain . I had a really good rest yesterday and it does make a difference , Even though it was a little bit divided , I suppose . I slept for probably five and a half , nearly six , and then got up and did a few things Went for a walk , had something to eat , caught up on some emails and you'd do all that . You'd watch the time you watch news , did a bit of cooking , had something really nice to eat fish salad did all that . Another hour and a half nap and back into it .

Speaker 1 4:15

That's the key . I was always a two-sleep night shifter . When I did night shift myself , I always found I'd get straight home , get that , sleep that five or six hours , get up , do all those PJs , those personal jobs , potter around .

Speaker 2 4:28

PJs . I like that we use them . Do the PJs Do ?

Speaker 1 4:31

your PJs . Got to do your PJs . They're very , very important to do . Then what we do is have dinner with the fam and then just go and put the head down 90 minutes , up to 30 minutes or 90 minutes . Our Australian rhythm has a sleeping in 90-minute cycle , so that's the key 90 minutes .

Speaker 2 4:51

And jumping into the cot , not just on a couch or in a chair .

Speaker 1 4:55

I know , into the cot , definitely . Or you can lie in bed and just have what they call deep rest non-sleep now , which is the new thing , the new fad . But I'm just lying in bed , eyes closed and just shutting right down , focusing on the breathing , makes a big difference to actually just helping you to get through , and I'm sure without that nap you'd probably struggle to get through tonight as well . You get conditioned to it .

Speaker 2 5:21

Yeah , I think there is a bit of that , and for me it's a bit of a work in progress , having not worked nights for a long time . It is , since , no different to really for those that may be hosting a breakfast program or getting up nice and early , so their alarm goes off at 3.30 to do a breakey program or shift that starts at five through until nine , then meetings and things and all that so , and then you're looking for something to eat at 11 o'clock in the morning .

Speaker 1 5:46

Yeah , that's right , so that is a problem , but I think the way you're doing it is absolutely the way I would recommend . I would suggest that when you finish work in the morning , I would go straight home and I would go straight to bed . Nothing to eat , no , have a light carbohydrate and protein milk , because that definitely helps you to sleep . So you could have something like I like to do protein powder mixed in oats . I always find that's excellent to have Just a little bit , though not a big meal , because you don't want to put your digestive tract under any strain while you're trying to sleep . The protein sustains you while you're actually sleeping . The carbohydrate actually helps you to go to sleep and it's a myth if you think you're going to put on weight by eating so close to bed .

Speaker 2 6:32

A little bit of Greek yogurt and honey . Just a few magnificent , beautiful , light tasty . That's the thing , yeah , and it's a beautiful , freshly made honey . The bees will come again , so the beekeeper came in and made all this amazing honey just before .

Speaker 1 6:46

Christmas . That's what we want . Yeah , so everything fresh . But when we come home , we have that meal Once again . It's around that breakfast time , isn't it ? Our circadian rhythm is getting ready for us to have breakfast . So if we have breakfast when we get home and do that and then we sleep , you'll find that you'll sleep better with a little bit of food in your stomach . And the protein is very important because it helps us to maintain that lean muscle while we're sleeping as well . Plus , protein's the building blocks of our body , and we want protein running through our system all the time because it's repairing .

Speaker 2 7:19

Roger is from a healthy shift . One word a healthyshiftcom . Instagram . You can do that as well . A healthy shift , so it's healthya underscore , healthy underscore shift on the Instagram and we're going to talk about weight .

Speaker 1 7:35

I'd love to talk about weight . I'm on a big rampage at the moment about I want to hear from people who have actually put on weight purely by working shift work . Like ever since they've started working shift work , they've noticed weight gain and I want to talk about why that's actually happening to them and what a strategy is to help you to reverse that or to actually manage it , because there's a reason why it occurs . That would be both men and women , absolutely More so women , actually men and women as well but we all tend to put it on around the middle .

Speaker 2 8:11

Yes , we do . Thank you for pointing that out , and I appreciate that from you .

Speaker 4 8:14

It's nice of you to be able to point that out .

Speaker 2 8:16

Roger , thank you .

Speaker 1 8:17

That's why I come into the studio .

Speaker 2 8:18

That's right , just say hello , you put another couple of kilos . Excellent , you're like Gerald Quigley , who delights in pointing that out .

Speaker 1 8:25

Does he really ? Yes , he does . What a terrible man . You're not supposed to comment on people's weight .

Speaker 2 8:29

Well , he does . To friends he does .

Speaker 1 8:32

He's a naughty boy he shouldn't do that , Because he looks like you know stick figure , yeah , stick figure , but that's genetics too , he's a lucky man .

Speaker 2 8:38

He is a lucky man . We take some calls very shortly . Come enjoy this one . Double three , six , nine three . We love the shift workers , and you may not necessarily be a shift worker as we speak , but historically you have been . You might be getting up early in the morning , you might be getting up late at night to work overnight , as we are , and sometimes I mean , there are people that tell me that they don't sleep very well , and particularly a certain demographic that don't sleep very well . We all go through that from time to time as well . So I wonder whether there are health effects around that A , they're not sleeping and B , either weight gain or just getting the right levels of rest at some point throughout the day .

Speaker 1 9:17

That is absolutely true . What we don't realize is it's a very , very vicious cycle , and the cycle that we get stuck in is , literally we don't sleep and it impacts on our mental health and the mental health impacts on our sleep at the same time and we can end up with what's known as sleep disorder . We have to reset that circadian rhythm every single day , because our circadian rhythm runs on a 24 hour cycle . In fact , it's 24 hours and approximately 12 minutes every day . Now , if you didn't reset that , what would happen to you ? It would continually get further and further and further out because it's got to run 24 hours .

Speaker 1 9:59

So what we need to do is we need to expose ourselves to early light . Our body relies on it . Our master clock in our brain relies on that early light to go . Okay , this is where we're at in time and space . Let's actually do . Let's actually get going and shuts down all of those sleep processes and builds us up quarters old to get us going Wherever you are right around Australia , here in Victoria , 3 at W Melbourne , 5 AA , adelaide , the ACE radio network .

Speaker 2 10:28

Come and join us . 1 , double , 3 , 6 , 9 , 3 . If you ring through now you get through pretty much straight away . Here's a lovely text to Roger , tuning in from Columbia , northernmost settlement in WA . Love that part of the world , love the chat . Roger , thank you very much showing up for us shift workers .

Speaker 1 10:45

It is just such an absolute pleasure .

Shift Workers

Speaker 1 10:48

I have a feeling that this is a group of police officers that actually put it on in the station in the middle of the night up there , so I want to say thank you so much to those people . I had a message from them after we did the show in December the first one , the pilot and they said that they put it on and they had a supervisor that was sitting there that was listening and goes . Yeah , this place seems to know what he's talking about . His shift work , doesn't he ? And and they're all .

Speaker 2 11:14

That's why you're in it . It's good to get that sort of reinforcement . This bloke actually knows what he's talking about .

Speaker 1 11:18

I think he knows what he's talking about .

Speaker 2 11:21

What about drivers ? Those that are listening and they're driving now ? Either they might be saying Uber driver or long haul truck drivers .

Speaker 1 11:29

I notice that we've got Christian on the board .

Speaker 2 11:30

We'll give Christian shortly .

Speaker 1 11:31

Yeah , yeah , I think we totally , totally underestimate who shift workers are . We think you know , we forget that while we're lying here listening to the radio and listening to talk back radio and you're here and I'm here and you know Ben's on the board we forget about the people who are just keeping the country running everything . There's so many shift workers that are actually out there that we underestimate and God bless our , our truck drivers and things like that Uber drivers , taxi drivers just truck drivers , just running stuff up and down the highways from day after day pilots , flight attendants , baggage handlers and people just in the manufacturing industry . We demand 24 hour service now in a society and that's why it's estimated that between 20 and 22% of the world's population is shift workers now .

Speaker 2 12:22

I wonder how many factory workers that we have say listening right now , or that have worked in factories overnight . I'm thinking there are not as many overnight factories that still take over . Am I wrong about that ?

Speaker 1 12:37

A lot of factories are running a lot of factories running overnight . Yes , they are Okay , but you got to have a look at it too . Have a look at something like Amazon and I don't know whether you've seen video of Amazon running . It's a lot of machines . Yeah , fascinating machinery , it's just machinery doing the whole picking and packing process , but someone's got to be there . Someone has to be there as well to turn the lights on and off , in case .

Speaker 2 12:59

Come and join us at 1-336-93 . Any of the great workers overnight workers , shift workers this is all about you for this hour , with Roger Sutherland talking all things to do with a healthy shift . Christian , we're a Christian . Good morning .

Speaker 6 14:07

Morning boys . I am on my way back to Melbourne from Wadonga . I just picked up a load of cheese . I've just done my two deliveries and picked up a load of cheese and taken it back to Leviton .

Speaker 2 14:20

Excellent work . And when you put the cheese in , did you sing to yourself what a friend we have in Jesus .

Speaker 1 14:27

I've got an address for you to drop some off too , christian yeah thank you .

Speaker 7 14:32

Here in Collins Street .

Speaker 2 14:34

Excellent work Go .

Speaker 6 14:36

Now , when I first started getting back on the road and started doing night shift , I was 97 kilos . Now I'm at 110 . Oh , literally .

Speaker 1 14:49

Yeah , so this is .

Speaker 6 14:50

Starting to look like the Mitchell and Mann .

Speaker 1 14:53

It's quite common Christian , and I think I've literally just released a podcast around this . It goes into detail and I would highly suggest you go to my website , ahealthyshiftcom , or , while you're out on the road , get my latest podcast . I think it's episode 109 or 110 . And it actually talks about a strategy to actually reverse that .

Speaker 1 15:17

One of the biggest problems that we actually have around shift work , it literally is eating the wrong things at the wrong time .

Speaker 1 15:24

That puts the weight on . And the other thing that people are unaware of as well is our metabolism actually slows overnight and we don't metabolize food properly overnight at all . It's our system . Because why , well , our system is not as efficient ? It's actually shut down Because once melatonin comes in at around about nine o'clock for people melatonin parks itself on the pancreas and what happens is it shuts the pancreas down , stops it producing insulin , which is what shuttles the glucose into the cells , and with and also our cells are insulin resistant . So what happens is anything that we tend to eat overnight while our system is shut down tends to float around our bloodstream and then it ends up getting parked as adipose tissue , which is body fat . So that is one of the biggest problems that we actually have , as a shift worker , eating food at the wrong time Even though we're awake . We are a diurnal creature , so therefore we are awake during the day and we sleep at night , and our body's natural rhythm continues to follow that rhythm , and that's why we end up putting on weight .

Speaker 2 16:31

Christian , are you eating whilst driving or do you jump out and go and have three dimsims , two potato cakes and a big bowl of chips ?

Speaker 6 16:39

I try and avoid that . I mean some nights you just like I'm craving something , so you go and get it , but I reckon more of it is me just sitting behind the wheel .

Speaker 1 16:49

Yep being sedentary .

Speaker 6 16:50

Because my body's not moving really .

Speaker 1 16:52

Yep , and that's right , because you are your more sedentary sitting there Because you're driving . How long is it going to take you to drive from Wadonga back to Melbourne ? That's going to take you 3 and a half hours , 3 and a half hours Well , that's sedentary time , and then you'll get home . And then what will you do ? You go to bed , or you turn around and go back .

Speaker 6 17:09

No , I'll go to bed , yep . Now the problem there is like I'm doing 14 hour days so I get home , so it takes me an hour to get home from Melbourne . So I live in Geelong , so I'm losing an hour there of sleep , yep . So then I'm sleeping pretty much all day . Get up , have a shower , go back to work . Yes , so I can't do where you guys are doing your five hours , get up , do your things and then go back and have a kip , because , yeah , I'm absolutely buggered .

Speaker 1 17:35

Yeah , yeah , I understand that , but you could have 25 minute naps , yeah , like while the trucks . 25 minute is all you need .

Speaker 2 17:42

Christian , just to refresh yourself while you're on the road , pull over and take a nap .

Speaker 1 17:46

Just pull over 25 minutes , set your alarm 30 minutes and get your 25 minute nap . Get up , get going again and you'll find that will make a huge difference . And if you're on the road , can I talk about the caffeine power nap ?

Speaker 2 17:56

Yeah , please you do .

Speaker 1 17:57

The caffeine power nap is an absolute beauty If you are feeling really , really tired , like really tired , and you think you're not going to crash , but your body is really crashing . If you have yourself a really good coffee , bed down by the time you sleep that 25 minutes , it washes the adenosine out of the brain , which wakes you up , and the caffeine goes in and blocks the receptor . You wake up like an owl . You wake up with your eyes brought and ready to go . So you , what you can do is you have like 200 milligrams of caffeine , which is like a couple of shots . Take one with you , lie down , drink the coffee , go to sleep because you know you'll be exhausted . Go to sleep In the time that it takes the caffeine to digest , go through and reach the brain . The adenosine has washed away from the brain . The adenosine is that sleep pressure that we get and then you wake up like an owl . 25 minutes is all you need .

Speaker 2 18:48

Excellent work A question . Does any of that resonate ?

Speaker 6 18:52

Yeah , it does , but I've got to have my half an hour breaks anyway . By law I've got to pull over anyway . So I've got to do those . So every every five and a quarter hours I've got to pull over and have a half . So I do do that and try and rest , but I do wake up and I'm just like far out . Count on me , feels like I've slept , you know , for a whole day and I feel real , you know shit ass .

Speaker 1 19:13

Yeah , that's because you've just slept just a little bit too long 25 minutes and get up and get going , because that means you stop that sleep inertia .

Speaker 2 19:21

A question . We've got to do this . Good to talk to you . We'll talk a bit later on one , double , three , six , nine three . Roger Sutherland , we're talking for the shift workers , the overnighters in particular shift workers . One , double , three , six , nine three calls the other side of this . Oh , thank you , we were just as caught napping . Thank you , Benny boy . Yes , we were just saying that all of a sudden it get very warm in here in the studio and you said what happens about ?

Speaker 1 19:44

four o'clock . I asked you and how do you feel about four o'clock ? And you said to me oh , the air conditioning changes in the building and we get cold . It's not the air conditioning in the building , Are you sure ?

Speaker 8 19:54

I'm absolutely positive .

Speaker 1 19:56

I can promise you that what it is ? It's actually your circadian rhythm , because if anybody were to work's night shift have you ever noticed and particularly people in like call centers or people sitting like we are sitting here now , we all think , oh , the air conditioners , come on , there's something wrong with the air conditioner in this building . It's actually your circadian rhythm , cooling you down . It's the coldest time that your body is actually at , because our body fluctuates about 0.8 of a degree through the 24 hour cycle . So if anybody's sitting inside and they notice that they get really cold , or even outside , they notice you get really cold sometime between three and five am . That is your body's coldest temperature and that's why everybody goes oh and complains about the air conditioning units in the building . But it's actually your own body and there's nothing you can do about it . It cools you to warm you , to wake you up . It's God's way it is .

Speaker 2 20:51

God's way . It is God's way . Yeah , Shawnee Hello .

Speaker 8 20:56

I do a bit of a shift for pushing trolleys , but I find I'm not eating at the right times

Irregular Eating Patterns and Health Effects

Speaker 8 21:03

. I'm eating all over the place , but I'm one of them people that could eat half a horse and not put any weight on . I'm all torn from it , though , but I don't know , is that good for you ? You're eating at different times , and , like I might go to work , I might have breakfast , I might have a couple of week-bix and a coffee , and then I'll have nothing for five hours .

Speaker 1 21:23

Yeah , it will catch up with you . It may not end up putting weight on , but biologically , what's it actually doing to your system , that food that you're putting in over those wrong times ? It's really important that we as humans , as a dienol creature , eat at breakfast , lunch and dinner times and we have good protein , carbohydrate and fat meals at those normal times . So you have to be careful of your body , counts on it , relies on it , anticipates it and metabolizes food optimally at those times . But when was the last time ?

Speaker 8 21:58

you had your bloods done , Sean . I had my bloods done about eight months ago and how were they ? I think they wanted me to eat fish oil for a little while , with blood sugar or something .

Speaker 1 22:10

There you go . See , this is what I'm talking about . Exactly what I'm talking about . So you might have had a very high what they call a HBAC1 reading , which is the precursor to diabetes . So you've got to be careful . Even though you are not carrying the weight , eating that food outside means that your body is not naturally metabolizing that food and it will increase what we call triglycerides , which is fat in your bloodstream . So , yeah , you might not be carrying the weight because you're lucky that way , but it won't be doing your system any good at all .

Speaker 2 22:45

Sean , keep listening . Text coming in . I'm a Type 1 diabetic . Doing an afternoon shift , have you listened to this ? A shift adjusting to insulin , or rather adjusting insulin , is a nightmare . Doing an afternoon shift have I shift ?

Speaker 1 22:59

Yeah , it's a very , very common problem with Type 1 diabetics and I do really , really feel sorry for them , because insulin naturally suppresses once melatonin comes in . At around about 8.39 o'clock and this text for you yes , 8.39 pm , insulin is already shutting down because melatonin is parked on the pancreas , as I said before , and this is what actually happens to a diabetic . It makes it a lot harder for them to actually adjust their insulin . I can't begin to imagine what it must be like . It must be very , very difficult for a Type 1 diabetic . This is why we need to people not eat overnight , because you will end up being a Type 2 diabetic and you're going to have exactly the same problem as this Type 1 has .

Speaker 2 23:47

Yeah well , so Benny and I don't eat overnight , but I know certainly Old Tony Mokli would often have a bite to eat around about 2 or 3 o'clock and the team would have a bite to eat . Yeah , bad , but I just can't . For whatever reason , for no particular health reason . I just don't enjoy it . I don't enjoy the food .

Speaker 1 24:04

I guess Well , I guess that's your system actually subconsciously telling you we don't need to eat now anyway . Well , I know we're awake and we're sitting here and we're chatting and we're doing things , but our system literally is running on a normal circadian rhythm . As you've noticed , at 4 AM it gets cold . It's still running at its normal circadian rhythm .

Speaker 2 24:23

The old days old broadcasts were just on the right hand side a little Johnny Walker , double black and an astro and a yes in most years , sadly correct . 1-336-93 , tauris in Pachnam . Good morning Hello . Tauris Hi . Hi go ahead . Hi , good morning . Good morning . What about nurses ? What about those nurses Tauris ? What do you mean by that ? Yeah , I was a night shifter at the time .

Speaker 1 24:48

Yeah , the nurses are then living angels on earth , the nurses . They do a fantastic job and they do , really , really , really struggle with the night shifters , particularly the females . Did you struggle , Tauris ? Yeah , 2-30 .

Speaker 3 25:04

And by 2-30 , I was tired , very tired , and become hungry . So that was a bit of a struggle .

Speaker 2 25:14

Otherwise it's been very many Tauris are you still working , sometimes overnight . No , I'm 92 . Back in the day , back in the day , you know how old 92 . 92 . And you have a good bandage yeah . I wish I could .

Speaker 3 25:34

But at the moment I'm riding on a new hip . I can't hardly walk .

Speaker 1 25:40

That's sad , teresa , and this is one of the biggest things . You've sacrificed so much of your own health for the health of others in that time and we would like to thank you for doing what you've actually done as a nurse too , because you do sacrifice that , and here you are now struggling along at 92 . But well done to you for doing what you've actually done for other people .

Speaker 2 26:00

Teresa , it's a great call and thank you for being part of the program . In a few hours CST a few years , rather not hours the truck driver will have to stop about every 3K to recharge the truck

Shift Work and Fatigue Management

Speaker 2 26:13

and then won't get fatigued . There's something recharge for 12 hours , it won't be a 12-hour recharge , that's number one . But I guess that will be the idea . But no different to really just having a petrol stop and a fuel stop and a bike to eat .

Speaker 1 26:26

Yeah , I think it's a golden opportunity and I think this is where and I just want to make a point of this for our truck drivers , because I'm sure there's plenty of listening I think the most important thing that truck drivers note is they're given a half-hour break after every five hours . Right , so they've got five hours and they've got to have a half-hour break . They need to get themselves ready , bed rest , close the eyes or have that deep rest , non-sleep for 25 minutes . At that time , if you go longer than 30 minutes like a lot of people say oh no , I can't nap because I wake up feeling worse , and the reason why that actually occurs is because we love the nap .

Speaker 2 27:03

Though we love the nap . Thrive on the nap , ah , thrive on the nap . So , winston Churchill , love the nap .

Speaker 1 27:09

Yep , it's . The most important thing that we as a shift worker can actually do is to nap . But the reason why we feel that what we call sleep inertia , is because we've slept too long , we haven't napped , we've gone into an hour or we've gone two hours . Our body needs to be asleep , wash that adenosine out and be awake again within 25 minutes , or sleep for 90 minutes , because our ultradian rhythm has us running in 90-minute cycles while we're trying to sleep , and it needs to be natural sleep too .

Speaker 2 27:42

Natural sleep . One , double , three , six , nine , three . More of your calls here on the other side of this , Roger Sutherland's . Here we're talking all the things to do with the night shift . What does all that mean for each and everyone ? If you have a thought , question , idea around shift work , give us a call . One , double , three , six , nine , three . You know what we need . Would you put it out there , my friend Roger Sutherland ? We're talking a healthy shift . What is it like for shift workers , particularly those that are type one ?

Speaker 1 28:13

I would absolutely love if someone who's a type one diabetic that has worked night shift or is working night shift to call in and have a chat with us and just tell us what they see with their insulin . If anyone's prepared to actually call in , have a chat with us , give us a yell , because I'm really curious as to follow up with that text that we got and it's really , really difficult for a type one diabetic and I want to know what they see with their insulin .

Speaker 2 28:39

Have they managed it ? Yeah , very good . A question for the big roge . What should we be doing when we get really peckish hungry about 2 am ? Listen to the body versus risk of disrupting circadian rhythm . Question mate .

Speaker 1 28:53

Yeah , I love this . I find that you should have a really good solid carbohydrate , protein and fat meal prior to 9 pm , and that would tie you over and then have something to look forward to . So what would that consist of ? High fat or like a big pasta meal ? No , no , no . Protein , carbon fat would be something along the lines of Ice cream ? No , really . Well , there's no downside , no , that's true , very good point .

Speaker 1 29:18

There's no downside . But what we'd want to be doing is having a good lean protein , some fish , like you have , or some chicken or something like that , with some vegetables which are high-fiber for us as well , and some fats would be just like a spread , or some nuts or something on the side of it as well , which helps us to get through . That's before to fill us . But then what I like to tell my clients to actually do is to have something like a Yo-Pro yogurt or to even have a baby bell cheese . What else could you have ?

Speaker 1 29:50

You could have a protein shake , something that slips through the system , that doesn't strain our system at all in the early hours of the morning Like I also on nights , if you used to sip on a highly blitz vegetable soup as well because you're getting all the nutrients in . It's not putting any strain on the system at all . Plus , it's keeping us hydrated and getting that fiber in through the system . At the same time , we want to avoid like we've got to just got to avoid the chocolate chips , lollies and Jenny's cake . We've got to avoid Jenny's cake .

Speaker 2 30:21

We love Jenny's cake . No , Jenny's cake we do love Jenny's cake .

Speaker 1 30:24

We just shouldn't have it at that time of the night . It ends up on our hips .

Speaker 2 30:28

Could we eat half a Magnum ? What are you going to do with the other half ? What a waste . I'll share it with Betty . We're seeing more and more shift workers , emergency services , and there'll be many listing right now . You can join in if you want to . We've got a free board there 1-2-3-6-9-3 . The question is where shift workers in roles of emergency services be looking out for and getting them to help . You know that deterioration overnight .

Speaker 1 30:57

The deterioration of what ? Of their health deterioration ?

Speaker 2 31:01

Yeah , burnout if you like , yeah , burnout .

Speaker 1 31:03

Oh look , I think one of the biggest problems we need to have strategies in place to be disconnecting ourselves actually from work , right ? So , by actually being in a position where what we can do is we walk away from work and once we walk away from work , we put work behind us , because too many people are actually living in the job all the time . They're in these chat groups , they're in these Facebook groups communicating , talking to people , doing things along those lines . What we want to do is we really want to disconnect from work so that we can pay back our family and give our family that amazing time that they need because they're supporting us while we're working those shifts as well .

Speaker 2 31:48

Let's take a couple of calls If you'd like to join us . 1-2-3-6-9-3 is the telephone number In . Our very special guest is Roger Southerland . It's a little segment we do every couple of weeks called a healthy shift . There are many that are listening overnight that are great shift workers . Trucks and forks take 12 hours to charge . I'm not too sure that it is the case . Does it take 12 hours to charge a truck in Canada ? And buses and things ?

Speaker 1 32:15

Well , I don't know . I know there was a lot of electric trucks and a lot of electric buses in Canada when I was there . North .

Speaker 2 32:22

America .

Speaker 1 32:23

Yeah , in North America there's a lot of electrics already . It's going to happen , and it's going to happen here for sure . So , Tony , we need to start and we need to put ourselves a coffee shop with a charging station .

Speaker 2 32:34

Yeah , that's a thing , thank you . There's a business idea , sandra , in Swan Hill . Hello .

Speaker 9 32:42

Oh , good morning . This is a really , really interesting segment . I thought we go to bed fairly early . You go have an I mean , I'm an old girl and then I'm thinking tonight about , oh well , 20 to 12 , I've had , I've got up , I've had a tiramisu , I've had some camembert cheese , I had enough and go , and then I had the ashtray .

Speaker 2 33:13

Oh beautiful . Did you put any beautiful honey on the camembert ?

Speaker 9 33:18

No , but you keep saying that .

Speaker 2 33:21

I know some camembert , a little biscuit and a little like half a teaspoon of honey will change your world with camembert .

Speaker 9 33:30

But , tony , this is plus 20 to 12 at night .

Speaker 1 33:34

Nothing wrong with it .

Speaker 9 33:35

What am I doing to my body ?

Speaker 1 33:37

Yeah , you're not treating it very well though , sandra . This is a problem . What I need you to do is understand these two things . All right , we have two hunger and satiety hormones , and when we're fatigued , like you , wake up , you're fatigued , but when you , those hormones are out of balance . We've got ghrelin , which comes from our stomach , which is a hunger hormone which is telling us all we need to eat . We need to eat , but you know it's a tricky little sucker and we need to just be careful of it and call it out on its rubbish and just say no , we do not need to be eating now , it's not important , we don't need to . So sometimes , just being mindful and asking yourself do I really need to eat , I don't really need to eat , and challenging yourself can be enough to stop you from actually doing that , because eating at that time of night , particularly when you've been asleep , your system is asleep it's not good for you , particularly as you're older , to actually be wanting to eat at that time of the night .

Speaker 9 34:39

All right . So what does the body do ? Just lay in bed and want something to . What do I do to rectify that ?

Speaker 2 34:46

How much water are you having ? May I ask Sandra ?

Speaker 9 34:52

Not a lot .

Speaker 2 34:53

Yeah , and I just wonder whether most of us probably are not drinking enough water overnight .

Speaker 1 34:58

Now , I think one of the biggest issues here , sandra , if I can flag that , and Tony is 100% correct with what he's saying here our body gets very , very confused between hunger and dehydration , and the reason being is because it comes from the same part of the brain , it comes out of the hypothalamus or in that area , and it comes from where the hypothalamus Okay , could we all just point to our hypothalamus .

Speaker 1 35:22

Just between the eyes and just back in the brain there . Thank you , yeah , and you know what ? It's attached to the hypothalamus . It's a suprachismatic nucleus , and what ?

Speaker 2 35:32

that does . There you go . Thank goodness you're here .

Speaker 1 35:34

Yeah , I know and what that does . That's our body's master clock and that's why it's there behind the eyes , because it wants to register the light .

Speaker 2 35:41

Okay , Sorry , I interrupted you on that .

Speaker 1 35:43

Now let's go back . So what we're doing . I've forgotten where we were at now . Tony , well done , well played . Oh , that's right . Hunger and thirst Two things that are very , very important . So I would suggest , sandra , that the first thing that you would do is have a good drink of water and then do what we call surf the craving . If you could just surf it for about 20 minutes just like a wave , let the wave wash and wash up the shore and dissipate and surf that craving , you'll find that makes a big difference . A lot of people do confuse hunger with dehydration If you're not drinking a lot of water and as a lady , you should be drinking a lot of water because you already have like a compromised digestive tract anyway so make sure you keep drinking a lot of water there and you might find that a lot of your hunger , particularly at that time , will go away . And , of course , no calories in the water .

Speaker 2 36:37

Hey Sandra , have you got some water ? Next to you as we speak .

Speaker 9 36:41

No , but when you're an old girl , all right , I'm going to drink a lot of water . Then I'm up all damn night going to the toilet .

Speaker 1 36:48

But you're not eating .

Speaker 9 36:49

Oh Jesus .

Speaker 1 36:52

I'm sorry , no , but Sandra , I totally understand that as well . This is a massive problem for a lot of people . I'm a nearly 60 year old male , so I'm up and down half the night anyway , so that's a problem . But try that . Just try to drink a bit of water , because you don't drink water to put that off . But it's actually by not doing that and then putting water in , which is what's making you want to go to the bathroom all the time . But if you continue to drink water , your body gets conditioned to it and you don't tend to go as much .

Speaker 2 37:20

That's a good point and that's what I was going to say that , because we're not used to it . But then once your system says you've got plenty of you , like you're hydrated , that's right , tends to manage it to the system we readjust to that .

Speaker 1 37:30

It absolutely does .

Speaker 2 37:31

One , double three , six , nine three . Sandra , thank you for your call More the other side of this , it's Australia overnight . Can we just thank all the wonderful textors ? It becomes a very long list If people just put their first name there . That gives us a reference to the level of continuity . Some people said two or three different texts for that one message . We've got a question . The big question is I'm a nurse . On nights I have severe nausea , to the point . Do we mention this and cannot eat and lose weight on nights . Yeah , there's weight .

Speaker 1 38:16

Yeah , a lot of people . I actually used to use night shift as an opportunity to give my system a rest . A lot of people and one of the biggest problems that we have as well is with our bodybuilders that continue to eat because they feel like they need to put a lot of food in . We really only need minimum protein every three to five hours just to maintain it overnight . But this poor nurse clearly would be a female . I would suggest this is very common Nurses on night shift . I've actually got a client who suffers severely with hypogasemia and has hypoepisodes on night shift and has to have a handful of glucose lollies to keep going . But she , even going into the night shift , can vomit on the way to work and that's just dreadful because and that's physical as opposed to it's physical , it's biological because your body's not used to doing what you are actually doing .

Speaker 1 39:12

We are not designed to do shift work . We're not designed for it .

Speaker 2 39:16

Gail in Berwick , morning Gail Hi .

Speaker 5 39:18

Good morning , how are you all ?

Speaker 2 39:20

We're well .

Speaker 5 39:22

Two years ago I used to drink that much water . I ended up in hospital annually , drowned myself .

Speaker 1 39:29

Yep , that's called hyponatremia .

Speaker 5 39:32

Oh , I know what it was called .

Speaker 1 39:34

Yeah , it's called hyponatremia . So what actually happened ? It's not you drowned yourself . What you've actually done there , gail , is you have flushed all the sodium out of your system and given yourself a very , very dangerously low sodium level . So what they would have done is put you into hospital and given you some electrolytes . I would suggest to get you back in balance .

Speaker 5 39:54

Yeah , I was in there for two weeks and I found that when I go to hospital this is a star-winned hospital to get my knee done last year , and every time I go to hospital , if I'm in there for 10 days , I lose 20 kilos .

Speaker 8 40:10

Yeah .

Speaker 5 40:10

And they can't figure out why I just lose the weight while I'm in hospital , but when I'm at home I put it back on .

Speaker 1 40:18

Yeah , that's very interesting . I'm not 100% sure why that would happen , but anyone that loses that much weight I want you to remember this it's weight , it's not actually body fat . So I would suggest that what would happen is it's actually just the glycogen that's leaching out of your muscles , bloodstream and also your liver , and that's where we lose a lot of weight . If you're a high carbohydrate eater , if you eat a lot of carbohydrates , that drags a lot of water into the system and when you go into hospital , you're not getting that volume of carbohydrates and that's why you lose the weight .

Speaker 2 40:49

Gail . Thank you , Ian , it's a real good morning Morning .

Speaker 4 40:53

How are you going , gentlemen ? We will .

Speaker 2 40:56

I don't know , Sorry about that .

Speaker 4 40:59

Y'all have 38 years in the paper manufacturing industry . It used to be on a 37 shift and now

Health Strategies for Shift Workers

Speaker 4 41:06

on a 12-hour shift , two days , two night shift , and suffer . The main thing with shift work is weight gain sugar levels . That's a big problem as well now .

Speaker 1 41:18

Yeah , massive . So you've been told that you've got a high HBA1c , which will be your sugar levels in your bloodstream . Is that right ?

Speaker 4 41:26

That's correct , yeah .

Speaker 1 41:27

Yeah . So what we need to do with you , or what I would suggest would be very important , would be to get back to eating in the biological day , and I would be putting a lot of my food into the earlier part of the day on those day shifts and not eating overnight on those two nights and night shift as well . So you've got to not do that . Increase fish oil I'd be taking a good few fish oil every single day and increase your fiber . Put something like a metamucil through your system every day as well . That will lower your cholesterol and help to clean out your blood .

Speaker 4 42:03

Okay , yeah , and a lot of the bloods that I have working around me are very overweight men , you know . So your weight will be a nose in the feed bag overnight shifts .

Speaker 2 42:13

Yeah , and it's a habit . It becomes a bit of a habit and I'm trying to avoid it . I'm trying to avoid it and so far I have doing the overnight program .

Speaker 1 42:22

That's really good , tony , because it is a habit . That's literally what it is . You don't need it and you've proven already that you don't need to eat overnight . You've been doing this show now for a few months and you now know you don't need to eat , so there's no reason to change it .

Speaker 2 42:36

We'll have this break and wrap it up . It's Australia overnight for this hour . Roger , we have Roger . Roger , we have some more calls . Are you happy to stay for a bit longer ? Just after the news coming up , I would love to stay on . Okay , lots of things to cover off . We might just go back and have a look at the question about burnout too , and some of the wonderful texts that are coming through . Grey nurses are tough , says the phantom . Grey nurses are tough . They are rarely at sea , so true . All the other side of news , lots of texts coming in too . In terms of staying up all night , you're scared the living . You know what ? Adam and Tony , mac , I'm going to bed . I'm shutting down the computer and going to bed . Sorry , mick , don't do that . Stay with us . One , double , three , six , nine , three . Let's take a couple more calls while you're here , if you're happy to do that . Roger Southerland , talking about shift work and some of the highs and lows of shift working . Marie , good morning .

Speaker 7 43:36

Good evening Roger and Tony . I've got a couple of questions Go ahead . One is I have been doing continuous night shift nine shifts a fortnight for the past seven years . I've recently gone across , as I've been concerned , of just doing continuous night shifts to doing three night shifts and two afternoon shifts . What my question is is what is the better of the two ? Evil for my body ?

Speaker 2 44:14

Does it feel like they're both evil to you at this stage ?

Speaker 7 44:20

I actually felt better doing night shift because I had a continuous routine .

Speaker 1 44:29

And that is absolutely correct too . And , tony , I'm sure you'd agree . At the same time , you do five nights of exactly the same yeah five more If you were to do two breakfast shows and then two afternoon shows and then two night shifts ?

Speaker 2 44:41

That would be weird .

Speaker 1 44:42

That is exactly what our emergency services are doing , and our nursing staff as well , that's where I work .

Speaker 7 44:47

That's where I work . That's why our senior doctors don't work night shifts .

Speaker 1 44:53

Yeah , that's right , because they know of the impact and how bad it actually is for them . So what I would highly suggest , and what the research would tell us , is to try and stick with some sort of a rhythm all the time , to keep your body in a rhythm , instead of chopping and changing all the time .

Speaker 2 45:08

How would that look like for this example ? For for Marie ? For Marie , I beg your pardon , Marie , sorry .

Speaker 1 45:17

How would it look for Marie ? What I would be actually doing is I'd be trying to stick with either the afternoons or sticking with the nights . If that's something that you're in a position to do , ideally , you don't want to be doing night shift . In all honesty , we don't want people doing night shift , but we have to , so we've got to try and optimize it . So sticking in a routine would be the best way to go about doing it . Does that make sense to you , marie ?

Speaker 7 45:43

I need to make that decision as to whether to go back . This was a trial that I put forward by seeing if it was better doing a couple of afternoon shifts and then a couple of nights . However , it's to my body clocks just not agreeing . But yet I'm worried at the same time that doing just night shifts will seem into an earlier death .

Speaker 2 46:09

Yeah Well , we want to , we want to go for bed .

Speaker 1 46:12

We do want to go minimum nights , that's what you want to do so are you in a position where you can do away with the nights ?

Speaker 7 46:21

I could probably put that forward to my boss to see how I could go with just doing afternoon shift .

Speaker 1 46:29

Yep , and even so , the most important thing is to be doing forward what we call a forward rotation . So you would be doing two afternoon shifts , then two night shifts and then having your days off , your four days off . That would be an ideal scenario for you to actually be able to do that Right . So what I would do is I would be putting forward to your boss that , as an option , you're happy to do like four afternoon shifts and then , or five , or whatever it is that you do , or it'd be an afternoon into a night . You don't want to be doing nights into afternoons . You don't want to be doing what we call a backward rotation . It's the forward rotation that we actually want . So day , afternoon , then night , then days off . Not going afternoon , sorry , night shift , afternoon and then day shift and then into days off , because that that is just not good for us at all .

Speaker 7 47:25

Also with eating on night shift . What is the best time to eat a main meal prior to night shift ?

Speaker 1 47:37

I've literally I've just written a complete blog on this on my website . If you've got access to a healthy shiftcom , and if you go up to the top there , you'll see that there's a link to blogs . I've literally just written a blog . Not only that , though , but I also have a free resource that people can download off my website . It'll pop up onto the website there that you can get if you just put your name and it'll be emailed to you , and this is called the circadian fast , and it actually explains what to eat and when and how to go about structuring the overnight fast for people who are working night shift .

Speaker 7 48:17

Okay , excellent , thank you .

Speaker 2 48:19

It's simply called a healthy shiftcom is the website . Marie thank you , it's a great call . Thank you very much . Just before I let you go , rog the idea that has industry in general . I think you , I know what your answer is going to be industry in general , embracing the idea , the frustration , the potential damage health , mental wellbeing that it does to shift workers collectively . Embracing how we can do it better ?

Speaker 1 48:45

No , yeah , there it is . That's the bottom line . They're not and they're not educating people that come into the shift working environment how to go about it , because I honestly don't believe that industry has the education of the impact that it's having , and what they're not realizing is and this is why I run health and wellbeing seminars in workplaces because , let's face it , if we've got a healthy workplace , we have less unplanned leave , particularly as in the moment with , like , emergency services . We have real problems with emergency services and they're burnt out . They're having big problems and they're not . They've never , ever been educated on how to go about it .

Speaker 2 49:27

We're talking about the police , the firies , ambulance nurses generally , frontline health and frontline health doctors , nurses frontline health and emergency services , first responders .

Speaker 1 49:39

That's a real problem for all of them and I can guarantee that there would be no one that could text us in or call us in tonight that could tell us oh no , we get solid training around night shift and how to go about shift work . Not one person . I don't reckon there'd be one person that could call us in and say they might have been handed a leaflet or they might have had a 30 minute lecture or there's something up on their OcHealth and Safety .

Speaker 2 50:04

Board , but that's it .

Speaker 1 50:05

Potential hazards it is an OcHealth and Safety Hazard shift work Full stop . Most accidents , like the the Exxon Valdez , happened on night shift .

Speaker 2 50:15

I've heard you say that before .

Speaker 1 50:16

And not only that , but Chernobyl happened on night shift as well . People make mistakes , serious mistakes on night shift Frontline health doctors working . I've got a client at the moment that works in Vancouver that was telling me that the doctors there work 24 hour shifts , 24 hour shifts , which is just crazy . It's ridiculous .

Speaker 2 50:38

They've made TV shows out of this . By the way , when doctors do the amazing shifts , they might have a kit for an hour and a half and they're back into it again for another 12 hours .

Speaker 1 50:45

You can't possibly you're actually performing at a level of worse than 0.05 . Once you get to that stage , who wants a doctor ? That's actually , and don't get me wrong , bless our doctors . They're fantastic , but they do get brutalized with their shifts and how they have to work , as do our nurses . So we need to make sure that we are following what the research is telling us about proper rotations with forward rotations . I'll tell you one thing , and I'll hear all the nurses and everybody cheer we have to get rid of these quick shifts . They're just unhealthy . These working afternoon shift and then working day shift the next day , or having to finish night shift and having that day off and then having to do a day shift the next day . It's absolutely outrageous and we need to stop that and stop it immediately . And there is a solution and we need to work with it .

Speaker 2 51:35

We could talk all morning about it Thank you for coming . We'll do it again a couple of weeks time and I guess the other thing that needs to be addressed , I guess , is the energy around that and how we transform that culture and look at what are the world's best practices in this . I don't know where that would be .

Speaker 1 51:51

What is research telling us ? Unfortunately , research is actually sitting on shelves gathering dust . There it is , unless we have people like me that are putting that information out there and helping people and advocating accordingly . Yeah , I'm a firm believer and I've been interviewing people on my podcast . We need to strip down these 24 hour shift working environments

Improving Work Environments Through Research

Speaker 1 52:11

and we need to build them , as what research is telling us today .

Speaker 2 52:15

Good on you , roger . Thanks for having me . Roger Sutherland , have a look at the website AHealthyshiftcom .

Speaker 1 52:22

Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to AHealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .