Law Enforcement Leadership and Mental Health

Speaker 1 0:00

Even where you are , you have suffered the repercussions of George Floyd and Ferguson and all these other things , because it doesn't matter what part of the world you're in , it's a reflection on law enforcement as a whole , and so what's happened is leadership that's come up through the ranks . A good majority of them have not been battle tested , and COVID happened and all these other incidents has happened and they don't know how to respond to it and instead of seeking that knowledge , instead of getting some mentorship and understanding , they resort right to fear and intimidation .

Speaker 2 0:40

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified nutritionist , veteran law enforcement officer and 24 seven shift worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers using evidence based methods to not only survive the rigors of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and well being so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show and welcome to another episode of a healthy shift podcast .

Speaker 2 1:19

Today I have massive pleasure in welcoming you so that you are introduced to Nick Ruggiero , the author of the book Police Mental Barricade a survivor's guide to law enforcement leadership . I want you to understand I'm not here to actually poo poo on management . What we are doing is identifying that there is actually a problem in law enforcement worldwide . So if you're listening to this with the intention of making an example of it , make an example of yourself and take the time and actually listen to what is being said . Get a copy of Nick's book . Get a copy of the other books that Nick Ruggiero has actually written , and you will be in a better position to understand where the problem is today , instead of putting the head in the sand and not understanding where it is .

Speaker 2 2:11

Nick is a third time bestselling author and is also his own podcast host of the Roll Call Room podcast . Nick is an advocate for law enforcement , mental health and also for police leadership reform . But this doesn't just sit with law enforcement . This here actually sits in first responders everywhere , and that includes police , fire , ambulance dispatchers and it also sits with frontline health as well , because this problem is a problem everywhere today . So let's get into the episode . How are you , nick , doing ? Great man .

Speaker 1 2:46

Thank you so much for having me on . Thank you for getting my book . I will enjoy the 12 cents that I get from that , so thank you so much .

Speaker 2 2:57

Let's not talk about the 12 cents , because I think if you save one life with this book , I think it's worth billions of dollars to you personally , because I know from your heart you wrote this and it's such an important book . I found this book and I listened to it whenever I got the chance . It's not a long book for people to listen to I'll get into the book shortly but it is life changing and I really want people to hear the background around what brought the book about . I also want people to hear about the pain that you went through actually writing it and why it is such an important book in today's day and age in law enforcement because it is , it's extremely important . So , nick , with that much further ado here , what led you to actually doing what you're doing today ? How did you get to this stage to actually , well , have to write a book ? But give us a bit of background about Nick Ruggiero Sure .

Toxic Leadership and Retaliation

Speaker 1 3:48

So I'm from the US , started my law enforcement career in New York City . I moved down to Virginia in pursuit of a full time law enforcement job , got hired at a semi small department right outside of Washington DC , went to the police department , really big into community policing . I ran the community policing unit as an officer at the pleasure of getting promoted to the rank of sergeant . Went back to the community policing unit as a sergeant . I did a lot , a lot of community policing initiatives . You know I have every certificate under the sun . I've won countless awards for crazy community policing ideas that I've come up with . You know .

Speaker 1 4:30

So when you think about somebody that was bleeding blue , I was that person . Like I had every t-shirt that you can possibly imagine that had law enforcement on it . I love the job . I breathe that job 24 seven and I was in the good graces of my leadership at my department and everything was going great . You know my career was shining . You know I had aspirations of being a captain and potentially being a chief of police somewhere and really furthering my career .

Speaker 1 5:01

But what I was really slowly starting to realize was around me . I was experiencing really , really toxic leadership . In particular , I had somebody that I was working for and very , very toxic work environment . It was taking a huge toll on my mental health and it took a toll so much that it was affecting my home life and ultimately it drove me to try and take my own life . I hit it from my department . I didn't really know what resources were out there , there was nobody really talking about it and if you were talking about it you weren't a cop anymore . You know they were taking your gun and your badge and you were out the door .

Speaker 1 5:46

You know I went through some really , really rough stuff with my department when I created a podcast and I started talking about poor law enforcement leadership and I never in my wildest imagination would believe that you would when I say you , I mean me would experience retaliation from people that I at one time admired . And then I really raised to the level of really strong leaders and I never thought that my words , which were true , would bother so many people and I found myself at the crosshairs of a criminal investigation which later was turned into an administrative investigation , and I was forced out of the department . It happened abruptly and , quite honestly , when I was notified about it , I thought it was a joke . I really honestly I was like this is crazy . There's no way that you think I'm doing this .

Speaker 1 6:48

And next thing I knew I was sitting in an interrogation room having my rights read to me and being accused of things that I would never in a million years do . You know ? You and I've had conversations offline and stuff , and that was three years ago . Even now I will drive to work and I will put some of the pieces together and realize well , that's why that happened . Well , that's why they were doing what they were doing , because it just creates so much trauma in your head . When I was forced out of my agency , I was a very , very bitter and angry person because my dream of being a police officer was ripped from me . And not only was it taken away from me , but the way that my former agency left it was is that I can never be a cop again . You know , I was labeled unhireable to ever wear a gun and a badge , and that was more trauma on top of trauma .

Speaker 2 7:46

I just want to go back over some of that , nick , because I mean , I can see your pain when you talk about it . For those that are listening that can't see , nick is what we here in Australia would call . The police here in Australia would call the classic American cop is a bigger guy exactly as you would imagine . So you think about . If you want to imagine Nick , that's it , but you'll see his picture on the back of the book . Anyway , one of the worst things that you can ever accuse a police person of is committing an offense , doing the wrong thing , isn't it ? That is probably one of the most traumatic things that a police person police man , police woman can literally be accused of . You can go through life , you can call them pigs , you can call them whatever you want to call them , but to be accused of doing the wrong thing and committing an offense deliberately to the stage where they're reading your rights and you're facing charges Is there anything worse in a cop's life ?

Speaker 1 8:41

No , for me that was the wake up , like when I sat in the room and I had my Miranda rights read to me and I've read them to people thousands of times . I will tell you was very poetic , sitting there and listening to every word that I have said over a thousand times , it was sinking in . It was an oh my God moment . It was like this is really happening right now and in the States , the way that it works when a law enforcement officer is investigated , the criminal case has to be investigated first before they can do an administrative investigation . It's the sign here , right . So with here , after I had my rights read to me , obviously and this goes for everybody listening to this you're going to want an attorney . Don't be stupid , you know so .

Speaker 1 9:31

I immediately was like I'm not talking to you without an attorney and the captain who was doing my interview said OK , well , we're going to just go right into the administrative investigation . I just shook my head and I was like I've conducted hundreds of internal investigations . I know for a fact that you can't do that and I sat in that room for an hour maybe an hour and 10 minutes being berated , being asked the same question 15 different ways , and it was the same answer , because when you're innocent , you don't need to make anything up . It's just that's what the truth is . And ultimately , what I was found guilty of was untruthfulness . I found that interesting because it was being found guilty of a truth that you didn't like . You know it was . That's wrong . I'm guilty of not telling your truth in the States , and I'm sure it's the same by you , as you cannot be a law enforcement officer if you are found guilty of untruthfulness , Because you can't testify in court ever again .

Speaker 2 11:23

It's a dishonesty offense , isn't it ? So yeah , and if you're a dishonesty offense , every single time you stood in the box to give testimony , they're going to take you on that . Every single time It'll take your credibility . You are gone 100 percent . You've done the job for so long . You know that . And just going over that , how old were you when you joined policing ? To start off with Like off air , you told me before that you used to run around with your brother playing cops and robbers , and that's really relatable as well . So how old were you when you actually joined and how long did you actually do in policing altogether ?

Speaker 1 11:55

So this one's going to blow your mind . So in New York probably one of the hardest cities in the world I started as a volunteer police officer working the streets at 16 . My parents signed a permission slip for me to put on a New York City Police Department uniform with no gun and walk around the streets with a radio and facilitate arrests and call things in that were really bad . Looking back on it and I see you shaking your head , because I look back on it after a long career , a law enforcement and realize how stupid that was yeah yeah .

Speaker 2 12:32

It shows how annoyed you've your parents were too , doesn't it ? Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 12:35

Well , you know my folks knew that since the time I can walk that I wanted to be a cop . And here comes this opportunity with the largest police department in the world one of the best police departments in the world to be able to do it . And my career path was to go to the NYPD and become a police officer . But at the time when I was eligible age wise they wanted 60 college credits , which is absolutely bonkers to want 60 college credits to become a police officer . And those of you that are listening to this , you having a college degree doesn't make you a better police officer at all .

Speaker 1 13:12

So I relocated to Virginia . Virginia gave me an opportunity . I did almost 17 years ,

Police Mental Barricade

Speaker 1 13:19

you know , and I was going to be what they call a lifer . I was going to do my 35 years . I was going to do it until , you know , my hip broke or I needed a wheelchair to get into work . I was that dedicated so I was in it . So from 16 to the age of 42 , whatever that is , I mean , I became a cop because I suck at math , so , whatever that is , that's how many years I was in law enforcement .

Speaker 2 13:46

Now that's crazy , Nick . This is the goal question . You bled blue , so did you love ?

Speaker 1 13:52

it . Love it is an understatement . My passion was the cliche of why people become police officers . I wanted to serve and protect . I wanted to save people . I wanted to not be a hero , but I wanted to be somebody that somebody that couldn't defend themselves can come to and be their advocate . I did it .

Speaker 1 14:17

But the community policing part was really my claim to fame , because I grew up in New York City where talking to people of all ages , races , everything it was not a big deal for me , it wasn't a barrier . I can go talk to five gang members . They were my best friends and I did very well in community policing because I really didn't think about the consequences , which sounds naive , but there was an innocence to that , which was there was no malicious intent in it . But make no bones about it If I felt I was in danger or that you were going to fight me or anything , you're going to have to put in some work . I knew my limitations , but I also knew that when we go back to when I was 16 years old and I didn't have a gun , I just had a badge and a uniform , that's what taught me that my biggest weapon was my mouth . Yeah , because if you can really talk to people and you could de-escalate situations . You really don't need that gun . Then don't get me wrong folks that are listening to this . Of course there's instances where you have to make that fatal decision , but a lot of times I was able to talk my way out of a situation .

Speaker 1 15:27

I'm tattooed from my shoulder all the way down to my wrists . You know when I would wear short sleeves I would relate to gang gangers . Those tattoos were a way for me to relate with them . My life experience of where I grew up , how I grew up . I loved that job . It was the only job I knew how to do and I loved it . So for me the void was tremendous when it went away .

Speaker 2 15:52

The most important tool that we have in our kit bag anywhere is verbal judo , and I think we were taught when we very first start out that verbal judo is going to be your best weapon . We all think that the taser or gun or handcuffs or battens are the most important piece , but without any doubt whatsoever verbal judo communication skills is the art . Anyone listening to this in the US or in Australia or worldwide . We thank you for what you've done there with your passion . We need worldwide people like yourself , without any doubt I'm not blowing wind up your skirt there , but I know we do . We need them .

Speaker 2 16:25

Your book , which is I'm holding a copy of it here . It's called Police Mental Barricade . It's the book that I found you and I rated as , without any doubt whatsoever , one of the finest books I've ever read . Thank you as a law enforcement officer , and it's not a difficult read . I want to talk about my mum when we get to it as well . She absolutely loved it because it's got big gaps between the lines and the print is readable . I got no doubt that plenty of thought went into that as well . It's all the little things right .

Speaker 2 16:55

For me personally , nick , this book answered so many questions for me and a lot of questions that I didn't even know that I actually had at the time , right , which is mind blowing as well , because I would sit there and read and I go , my God , I didn't even realize that it just turned on lights Me . Personally , I've been feeling really alone and abandoned for three years and I suddenly didn't feel alone anymore , and that's a severe credit to you for this book , nick . It really is , because I've been traumatized myself and the book answered a lot of questions and it was a small price to pay to actually get the answers that I didn't know I needed . Now I'm really lucky because I've read it . But the question is going to be what led you to write a book with such a brutal title ?

Speaker 2 17:37

It's Police Mental Barricade and it's a survivor's guide to poor law enforcement leadership . The book actually has an extremely graphic image . On the front it's got a picture of a detective standing there with a badge , holding a gun to his head , in front of a crime scene . It's graphic for anyone . It portrays a bloodied and a disheveled detective outside a crime scene holding a gun to his own head . It's brutal , but it conveys a really severe message , and I know what the message is . Because I've read the book , I've been fortunate to what led you to write the book , nick .

Speaker 1 18:08

So right after leaving my agency I went there . I was required to come in , bring all my uniforms , every piece of equipment that I've assembled . In the time that I was there . My wife absolutely amazing , has been on the ride along the whole entire time went with me , came home after doing that and went to bed and stayed there for three days . I couldn't get out of bed , sobbing just the absolute lowest of the low was just at a really , really bad point in my life . And wife was like you got to talk to somebody and I didn't want to . I mean , I was the typical cop . Yeah , I talked to a therapist and the therapist was like you got a journal .

Speaker 1 18:47

You know , when I talked about it before , which it was quite funny , I was like a journal . A 40 year old man , I'm like a journal , like you know what is this ? You know I was the mustered up enough strength and again I can contribute that to my wife and I still remember I don't remember a lot from three years ago , but this I remember very clearly is grabbing my laptop and sitting at my kitchen bar and I remember starting the journal in my Word document and I just started typing . It was really refreshing because things just started to pour out . And I think I got probably halfway through chapter one and I turned it to my wife and I said here take a look at this , what do you think ? And she was like this is the beginning of a book . I never went to college . I could barely spell things correctly . I can't even tell you how many memos were sent back when I was a sergeant with typos and stuff like that . You know I was a grunt , I was a street cop , you know . So , luckily for me , there are editors out there , thank you . And you know I started writing this book and the anger I channeled that anger and betrayal into just writing and writing and writing and writing . And if you read Police , mental Barricade the beginning I get this a lot . I get a lot of folks that reach out and they're like it sounds like a journal in the beginning and that's where that comes from , because it was a journal to begin with . And then I started to realize that , you know , I needed to get this stuff out and I needed to start writing . And you're 100 percent right , there was a lot of care into the spacing . I know how cups are .

Speaker 1 20:25

I would like to say that I did a lot of reading when I was an officer , but that would be a lie . I didn't and I wish I could go back and do it over again . And the reason why I didn't is because most police books they're , you know , 500 pages long . They're small font and if you're in a patrol car working nights you're just trying to stay awake and you grab one of these leadership books , it puts you sleep . You're just like I can't follow along with this thing . The print is so small . So there was a lot of thought into that .

Speaker 1 20:58

It was how do I make this a book that you can read in one shift ? It's not long , you can tell your readers , it's maybe 119 , 125 pages , and it's by no coincidence . I made it a goal to keep this as almost like a manual or something that you could fold up and put in your back pocket or put in your duty bag and read it a little bit at a time . And what I discovered was people couldn't . They would read it in an hour and a half , because it just the more you read , the more light bulbs start going off and you start going oh , oh , man , that that's me . I'm dealing with that right now that's my supervisor , like what he's talking about . That's the lieutenant that I can't get along with and it's not me . Like I've .

Speaker 1 21:45

For years I've been thinking that this is maybe I'm not living up to their expectation .

Speaker 1 21:51

Trust me , it's not you , and it doesn't matter what part of the country you're in or what part of the world you're in Police , mental barricade or survivors .

Speaker 1 21:59

Guide to poor law enforcement leadership is pretty much the manual of how to deal with some of the issues that we're having within law enforcement . With poor leadership , we can definitely go into law enforcement as a whole , but we don't have a law enforcement problem . We don't have a problem with our boots on the ground folks . We have a real big , big problem with our leadership in the direction that they're taking us with this profession . And when I say us , I still consider myself . Even though I've been out of law enforcement for three years , I still have a vested interest in the investment that I made in it . Those years that I put into it are not in vain , and listening to your folks like you that are like you know this meant a lot to me and that you know I related to it . It makes it all worth the bumps and bruises and the pain of putting this book out and the repercussions After I put it out .

Speaker 2 22:56

There's two books that I write right to the top . I had a book that I was reading which is all about Cicady rhythms and biology and all that sort of stuff , and that was written by professor Russell Foster and it's called Lifetime . It's exceptional , but these . I read this and it went straight to my number one . And it's no secret , nick . I've shared it many times on my Instagram stories . I've done a post on it , with my mum holding the book as well , and we'll talk about that , but it does . Do you agree today that the actual job hasn't changed ?

Speaker 1 23:26

now the job is still the same . We respond to calls , we try and solve crime . We try and resolve crime where the guardians of the ones that can't defend themselves or that are victims of heinous crimes . That hasn't changed since the beginning of time . What has changed is is there has been a huge shift in how we're led . It's a huge shift as in our leadership .

Speaker 1 23:55

Leadership has come up through the ranks of peacetime . They have not been battle tested . Even where you are , you have suffered the repercussions of George Floyd and Ferguson and all these other things , because it doesn't matter what part of the world you're in . It's a reflection on law enforcement as a whole , and so what's happened is Leadership that's come up through the ranks . A good majority of them have not been battle tested , and COVID happened and all these other incidents has happened , and they don't know how to respond to it .

Speaker 1 24:25

And instead of seeking that knowledge , instead of getting some mentorship and understanding , they resort right to Fear and intimidation , and that will only get you so far . People will not follow you into the fire based on fear . They just won't . It will wear off . It's fleeting . You know . You may get away with that for you know five , ten years , but eventually people are going to see through it and be like I just don't want to work for you , you're not a good person to work for .

Speaker 1 24:54

The job hasn't changed at all . It is the same . If anything , technology has changed , which has made our job a little bit easier and difficult . At the same time , technology and crime detection has changed . You know DNA and all these other developments , but you still have to follow the same steps in order for you to obtain that DNA . You still have to follow the same steps for you to cultivate the case . The answer to that is as the job definitely has not changed in the rudimentary sense , it's definitely changed . As far as leadership goes , you know , we see that with recruitment issues your biggest recruiters are your current

Leadership and Recruitment in Law Enforcement

Speaker 1 25:34

staff , your current officers , and so when I hear departments say that they have a recruiting problem , I know immediately you have a morale problem too , because if yeah , I'll totally correct .

Speaker 1 25:44

Yeah , if your current officers that are in there aren't drawing in five to six candidates individually to recruit , I Know you have a morale problem because your officers are not out there Toting your department flag . They're not going out and saying this is the best place to work . I have the best leadership at the best work life balance . My mental health is amazing . You know , the other day I wasn't feeling well and I didn't get any static about taking off or hey , I screwed up this report . I actually got spoken to about how to improve and I didn't feel terrible after that conversation . We both know that that is not the case .

Speaker 1 26:27

Now more than ever , you're raked over the coals to the point where you're like , why am I doing this ? Like I can go work at Burger King and make more money and less stress , and then if I screw up , I don't have the fear of getting arrested , and that's what our job is turned into . That's what our profession has turned into is is that we have beaten the job out of and the morale out of our folks and I feel bad . I see it in them a lot of my friends that are still cops . They're barely holding on , they're waiting to that 20 year mark and you know , 10 years ago you know the folks that were doing 25 30 years was through the roof . Nobody wanted to leave . Yeah , now you've got people counting down when they got five years left . That was never the case . When I first started in law enforcement , you didn't start your countdown until you had 12 months left .

Speaker 2 27:19

I agree . Yeah , totally , because the thing is I love the spin Doctoring around this as well as the life expectancy in law enforcement these days is around 10 years , what ? That's the stats . But they're saying that that's where we get the best of people and then they're no good after that because they become bitter and twisted . I wonder why , really , that's spin doctoring , that's turning around and saying that people that were running around with 30 year bars or 35 years or , and they were Experienced people that were teaching the new people the right way to go about it and leading them in the right direction , but now what happens is people are burnt out and gone by 10 years because they're done with what's going on , and what happens then is We've got no experience to teach the new , so it's a spiraling problem that's occurring . But then they spin doctorate and say , well , that's because you know , the life expectancy in law enforcement these days is literally only about 10 years . Well , no , that's not what you should be expecting now , nick , the hemorrhaging these days .

Speaker 2 28:21

It wasn't until I started this job that I'm doing now , with a healthy shift and helping people , coaching shift workers and Communicating with police officers right around the world , through the UK , through Europe and also through the US and Australia . This hemorrhaging is the latest crisis . This is a world what it could actually end up being worse than COVID . I'm not saying people are going to die , but people will die because of the crisis in policing . End of story . Right , and you can call me out on that and I don't care .

Speaker 2 28:48

I'll argue it to the grave . I really will , because we are in a real problem . I know we're in massive problems here in Australia and you have identified that we've got massive issues right through the US . And when you've Got a population that 22% of your population are shift workers , you would have to be putting down a lot of those in law enforcement as well doing that job . And then also in the UK , a lot of Agencies are now actually recruiting . They're making it attractive for people . We've got agencies here in Australia that are actually Advertising overseas to bring people in and guaranteeing them visas and their partners visas to live here while they do the job . Like , wow , we have gone a long way . In your opinion and I know what you're gonna say here because you've probably really covered off on it what is the reason for this ? What would you take to the grave and stand there on your last hill , custors last stand . This is standing there and you'll say this is the reason . What would you say ?

Speaker 1 29:45

It definitely goes to leadership . People don't leave the job , they leave people . It is not the job that people are leaving , it's the leadership that they're leaving . If you could recruit everybody under the sun , but if your retention is 10 years , you're not fixing the problem anymore because we're not as a whole and it doesn't matter what part of the world you're in . Recruitment is terrible . The people that we're targeting to come and join this profession is terrible . I've said it before we started you're targeting the tiktok generation . The tiktok generation that's coming on to law enforcement wants to do this job , to make videos , to have a gun , to have a badge , to look cool . But at the five-year mark , if they don't get what they want , they're out the door .

Speaker 2 30:30

Can I just stop you there just for one second , because on social media at the moment and you will have seen it all police agencies , law enforcement agencies now are actually promoting the tiktok cop , aren't they ? They're all putting them up there as it's all fun and wave this flag and wear this ribbon and do that . And don't get me wrong , I'm not against any of that , so don't come at me for that . But what I'm saying is , when you are in trouble and you call a cop , you want Nick Regera to turn up , you want me to turn up . You don't want people that are tiktok cops turning up to your house because they don't know how to do the job . I hope you're enjoying the show . If you are , please don't forget to rate and review once you've finished . This helps the shows reach enormously .

Speaker 2 31:21

And have you got my free e-book the best way to eat on night shift ? Well , this is a comprehensive guide to the overnight fast , why we should fast and how to best go about it . I've even included a few recipes to help you . I've put a link to the e-book in the show notes . And are you really struggling with shift work and feel like you're just crawling from one shift to the next . Well , I've got you . If you would like to work with me , I can coach you to thrive , not just survive , while undertaking the rigors of 24 seven shift work . I also conduct in-house live health and well-being seminars when I will come to your workplace and deliver evidence-based information To help your well-being team to reduce unplanned leave and increase productivity in your workplace . I've put the links in the show notes to everything mentioned . You can find me at a healthy shift dot com or on instagram at a underscore healthy , underscore shift . Now let's get back to the show .

Speaker 1 32:26

Because folks like you and I that have 20 plus years on are leaving . The tic-tac cup that's been on for three years is now training the officer that just got on . It's babies training babies , and the problem with that is is that when I want to build a house , I hire somebody to build the foundation of my house . If they haven't built foundations of houses , would you hire them ? Well , the same thing works with training police officers . If you've never run after somebody at two o'clock in the morning , we're got into a fight for your life where you have gotten drug arrests or you've done all of these things that are part of being a really good proactive cop . How are you training new cops ? What you're doing is is you're giving them a false sense of reality and it's going to get somebody hurt or killed .

Speaker 2 33:17

Yeah , it is . Yeah , it's going to get worse , a lot worse .

Speaker 1 33:19

It's going to get tremendously worse , and I said this multiple times on my podcast . I think I wrote it in one of my books . Now you have a bigger problem on your hand because you haven't fixed the mental health crisis within law enforcement and you are recruiting the TikTok generation , who has grown up accepting suicide as an answer to problems . Yeah , snuff likes , and the problem is is because you don't cultivate a good atmosphere for them to come forward . Law enforcement suicides in five to 10 years will be in triple digits . Mark my words and I hope I'm wrong .

Speaker 2 33:56

We're going to get to that , because I do want to discuss literally that . How on earth did it get to this , nick ? How did it get to this stage that we're at in going into 2024 ? I think ?

Speaker 1 34:05

we got to this point

The Crisis of Law Enforcement Leadership

Speaker 1 34:06

because folks like me and quite a few other people I'll throw a name out there to Travis Yeats , yep . He wrote the courageous place leader when we started speaking up about this stuff and we started identifying that there was a problem and I did it three years ago . Travis has been doing it a lot longer than I have . We were pushed out , we were ostracized and had you have listened to us or had you have harnessed what we were telling you , you wouldn't be in the crisis that you are . And to compound that , you have international organizations that turn a blind eye to it . You know , you have police associations that don't address poor law enforcement leadership . They turn a blind eye to it and they push it down on the boots on the ground . They go well , it's not leadership's fault , it's your fault . It's your fault because you can't take direction or this is a paramilitary organization . Do as I say , not as I do , and that has gotten us far enough . But the thing is this isn't 1955 anymore . We have social media , we have other issues .

Speaker 1 35:15

More law enforcement officers killing themselves in the United States than a line of duty deaths . It's a problem . It's a massive problem . That's a big , big problem . And the problem is is that and I'm not taking anything away from officers that have died in the line of duty no Ultimate sacrifice it is , but there is a wall in Washington DC with all of these names on it of officers that have died in the line of duty .

Speaker 1 35:39

I don't see any wall for folks that have taken their life , based on post-traumatic stress and based on a lot of other factors , from being a law enforcement officer . And the problem with that is it's kind of like not having monuments from the past . If you can't see it in front of you , you're doomed to repeat it . And the problem is is that there's nothing in your face to turn around and tell you that you know 185 officers last year to suicide . There's nothing there and that's the problem . I think we will continue to see a problem , and the reason why we've gotten to this point is is that until law enforcement leadership is ready to acknowledge that there is a leadership problem , this will just continuously keep on happening .

Speaker 2 36:23

I could not agree more . I just want to reflag what you've literally just said there , that in Washington there's a wall that has all the members that have lost their lives in the line of duty . That's a tribute and that's fantastic , but what we are forgetting is you don't have to be actually working , and if you lose your life or take your own life , you've also made the ultimate sacrifice and succumb to your demons as well , and that has been as a result of the job , because you know as well , once you take that oath when you start , or the affirmation or whatever you do , to swear yourself in as a police officer , that never , ever , ever leaves you , whether you have done four years , five years , 10 years , whether you've done 35 years and you've touched on this before that , even though you're out three years , you still consider yourself one of the brothers , and I think you're absolutely 100% correct in doing that myself . That's my personal opinion , because you've sacrificed so much along the way . You've gone through the trauma , you've witnessed a lot , your family suffered , you missing , all the events that you get to go to and all the rest of it , but it's just not good enough that , outside of that , members succumb to their demons . I'm going to go another step here as well , so make sure you're listening to this one .

Speaker 2 37:44

When you succumb to those demons , post the job , and I'm not taking anything away from people that suffer from PTSD injury . I call it injury because I'm going to reframe all of this . It needs to be reframed , but I think that the injury that we get in the job is fixable . For a lot of people it's fixable . So why is it they end up taking their lives three years later , and that's the issue that's got to be addressed within that 12 to two years , three months why does that actually happen ?

Speaker 2 38:17

Now ? We've got officers leaving of their own free will . Now , right , they're just . At least they're doing that , they're not just putting up with it until they actually capitulate to leadership I think that's the right terminology as well . We've got officers leaving of their own free will and they're choosing other vocations now , but we must acknowledge and do something about the officers that we're losing in those unthinkable ways as a foremost , don't we ? Now ?

Speaker 2 38:39

I'm going to be interviewing Michael Segru as well around this , and you're both very similar in your perceptions of what's going on , which is why I've sought both of you out and I want to speak to both of you , because both of your books are outstanding for the reasons they're both very different . I don't put one before the other , they're just exceptional . Now we can't just have leadership , because this is what happens we lose an officer and then the leadership stands are at the podium , but they don't even do that anymore . But they used to stand there at the podium and say this is just so sad that this person succumbed to their demons . It's blind ignorance , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 39:12

100% . Multiple times I've seen law enforcement leadership , especially when there's a suicide within the police department . They don't acknowledge it , they don't talk about it . No , If you're lucky they'll do a press brief and they'll say so-and-so officer with 17 years on the job is no longer with us , or something very vague . They don't want to talk about it Because the most of it is is it leads to a lot of questions , which is what was so terrible in their life that they did that ? It certainly does . They don't want to answer the questions or they don't want to go interview that family because if it was my wife that they interviewed , if I was successful in what I did , she would have turned around and said he didn't do it because he saw something traumatic on the job . No , and I saw a lot of bad stuff .

Speaker 1 40:02

Oh yeah , saw a lot , a lot of bad stuff . She would have told you well , was this commander , this person , this person and this person that made his life a living hell ? They don't want to hear it . Yeah , oh , they don't want to hear it . They don't want to hear it . They don't want to acknowledge it .

Speaker 1 40:16

And the problem with that is is that you know to catch up with you eventually I said it before which is is leading with fear and intimidation , will only get you so far , yeah , but eventually you're going to need to leave policing , like these poor law enforcement leaders .

Speaker 1 40:31

You're going to have to leave policing soon , and the void that you're going to have in your life because nobody's going to be around you , right , I think of these folks that were great leaders that I worked for when they retired . They had big retirement parties and they were followed out the door and you know people were sad to see them go , but they still kept in touch with them because they were great , great leaders . Yeah , I think the leaders today , when they walk out the door and nobody's behind them , they're all in another room watching the surveillance camera as you walk out the door so they can cheer . That's so true and I don't know about you . I never want to leave a place like that . I guess you have to be really , really heartless or maybe even a psychopath for you to be okay with that , to do that every day , and unfortunately that's kind of what we're breeding in law enforcement , right ?

Speaker 2 41:21

now , I agree . Now , nick , in your book it wasn't all doom and gloom , because you actually touched on the way forward and how policing worldwide can cover . So I just want to make sure this book is not bash bash , bash , bash , bash . It's identifying issues . It was written by Bitter and Twisted man some of it at the start , but it's got such a lot of logic in it , no doubt about it , right , and what I really did like as well was you touched on . The next question I'm going to be is can policing worldwide recover and if it can , how can it recover ?

Speaker 1 41:52

This is going to sound hypocritical , but I don't mean it to be , but really , the next generation of law enforcement is the only one that's going to be able to fix it , which is our TikTok generation . Officers are the only ones that are going to be able to fix it .

Speaker 2 42:05

That's all that's left .

Speaker 1 42:07

If they are allowed the freedom to fix it , which is having podcasts with police officers , current police officers without retaliation , without repercussions parameters ? Yes , because of course , there is liability with your words and our younger generation doesn't understand the ramification of starting to talk about people's particular cases on the air . But I think the same thing I said earlier , which is this is the generation that grew up with suicide . A

Reforming Police Leadership and Hiring Processes

Speaker 1 42:40

lot of their heroes killed themselves and they grew up with this . You know your generation and my generation . Suicide was a faux pas . You never talk about it , you never acknowledge it . But this is the generation that has grown up with depression medication . This is the generation that's grown up with PTSD and suicide and all this other things . Why not harness that ? Why not now start a police generation where talking about it is acceptable , acceptance of getting help is acceptable , taking depression medication and being a cop at the same time is completely unheard of . But unless you start harnessing that , you're going to have a big , big problem on your hands and I think if you don't harness the new generation of law enforcement and you let them fix the damage that we've given them , you're doomed to repeat it , because that generation is just going to perpetuate the same poor law enforcement leadership , because that's what they're being taught Shut up , don't say anything , do as I tell you to do , don't talk about this . And oh , by the way , the only way to get ahead is to knife your fellow officer in the back so that you can get ahead , and that has worked for law enforcement for a really long time . We heed our own .

Speaker 1 43:59

I mean , I think everybody can agree to that . Finding out that somebody is leaving the police department , that you're in competition for a specialized unit or a promotion , it's a huge fulfillment . Like you're , like that's less competition for me . Celebrate it , and it is . It really is . I mean , when I got walked out the door , I'm sure there were 15 people that were well , of course , more now , but you know , like when I got walked out the door , they were like oh this is fantastic , now I don't have to worry about Nick for lieutenant .

Speaker 1 44:26

You know like no , it's a very , very dangerous profession , but at the root of it it's the greatest profession in the world , and we can't be silencing people for speaking in vague terms around it either .

Speaker 2 44:37

I think we need to make a point of listening , just taking that minute and listening to what people are actually saying , because it's not these unique individuals , it's the unique individuals that are the voice of the many , and I think that's what we need to be making sure that we are listening to the voice and what it's saying . What does police leadership reform look like ? Please don't tell me that we're going to have lieutenants dancing on TikTok .

Speaker 1 45:03

No , no , I think the selection process for our command staff within law enforcement needs to drastically change . I think that the hiring of police chiefs needs to be less political , which is very difficult . I think placement of people in leadership positions , particularly at the top , like chiefs of police or sheriffs , need to be less about your seniority or how long you've been in law enforcement and more about what you've done to prepare for this leadership position , Because too many times we see this , particularly in the States you'll have an open chief of police position and then they make an announcement maybe a month later that so-and-so . Nick Ruggiero is now the chief of police and he's done four years in the Miami-Dade Police Department as the police chief , and then he did four years as chief in Texas , and then he did four years in Ohio as a chief and then he did four years in Colorado and after a while you start to go well , this person's been moved around a lot , so they're really , really good or they got tired of them and more than likely it's the last one .

Speaker 1 46:10

We pass poor law enforcement leadership around like a peace pipe . We literally pass them around , and I'll propose a question to you . I know this is your show . So you're the hiring manager for your police department and you get this resume and on this resume , this officer has worked for five different police departments in six years . What's your major concern ? That's one , Two would you offer them a position ?

Speaker 2 46:37

with that . There'd be two different ways of looking at that , and I know the way they look at it . Now they would look at it and go , oh , look at the experience he's got . He's worked in five different police departments . Oh , this is good , we need this person . The other thing that I would look at there I'd have concern and you'd obviously have to do you due diligence and you'd be wanting to ask the grunts about the leadership . I'd also want to be looking on his resume as to how many leaders he had built .

Speaker 1 47:02

When we look at the chief of police position and we see that they've been at six different police departments in a short period of time . That , to me , is not a forward thinking leader . That , to me , is a red flag . Why wouldn't this person just stay in this police department as the chief ? If they were that successful and they were creating future leaders , why are you leaving and why have you left so frequently ? But instead , in the current profession and the current climate it's the first one that you said , which is look at all of this experience that we're getting and this is what happened with the chief that ultimately pushed me out of my position and then , ultimately , I got removed . He had been a chief of police at multiple locations and it was actually because he could not keep a position at one place for too long because he led . He's got found out Right . He led with fear and intimidation and again , that will only get you so far . Very much so .

Speaker 2 47:59

Now , nick , you are very well connected and you're communicating with a lot of police agencies worldwide because I've got

Recognition and Impact on First Responders

Speaker 2 48:05

no doubt , just like I reached out to you after reading the book because I wanted to acknowledge it you're hearing from a lot of people worldwide . I'm really curious , because people we do need a voice from somewhere and somewhere to go . But do you find that other first responder agencies like FIRE and paramedics , like your EMTs I think you call them EMTs there or even frontline health , do you hear from people that are reading this book that are so relatable to them from other agencies ? Because all we've done is bang on about law enforcement here and , let's be honest , the title of the book actually says Paul Law Enforcement Leadership right , people from other agencies getting much out of it . Are you getting feedback from FIRE and health first responders ?

Speaker 1 48:47

Absolutely so I'm gonna take a dig at my FIRE partners when they're not sleeping .

Speaker 2 48:53

Oh , we love to do that when they're not sleeping .

Speaker 1 48:56

I've gotten a lot that have read this book . The group of people that I would surprise you to know that have reached out to me are our dispatchers yes , yes , our forgotten heroes . They'll read this stuff and they'll go . You know I've had quite a few reach out and go . This makes so much sense why you guys are so nasty on the radio sometimes , or why you know when this supervisor is being dispatched out to a scene , why your voice changes and why you just change . So the answer to that is yes , and a lot of military folks too . It may say poor law enforcement leadership , but it really . It transfers pretty much to everything .

Speaker 2 49:36

Does . That's why I asked the question , nick , because I wouldn't tell you in our preamble , but my partner's actually a police dispatcher , so gets it totally . And what I love and I mean I love about yourself and also Michael Segru is you always include your police dispatchers or your dispatchers in the first responder . I can also tell you that well , you know the history because I've told you , but my son is also a fire dispatcher , so he's a dispatcher as well , so really in the family there , and I love that you and also Michael are including the dispatchers in there , because they're sending units to jobs , they're doing things . It's traumatic for them too , isn't it ?

Speaker 1 50:15

It is and what I said , which is they are the forgotten heroes . You know , I took it upon myself , particularly when I was a cop and then when I became a sergeant . After a dispatcher would dispatch a very , very traumatic scene , I would make it a point . Either that would drive to the communication center or call them up on the phone and give them closure , because they never get the final chapter . So I would call them or go up there and say , hey , listen that call , we wound up finding that kid . I love that . Or hey , this is what we found when we went on scene . Unfortunately , this is the result of it .

Speaker 2 50:49

Yeah , but they get the closure and they don't go home wondering Every shift , day after day after day , wondering what happened , and I know for a fact that they really appreciate it coming from the grunt on the ground . I love the job that you did . I think it was fantastic . You did everything you could . I just want to give you some closure . So you've got the background in relation to it . Do you have any idea the difference that that makes to dispatchers , to anybody that's listening to this , that is in either at the other end of fire , at the other end of ambulance , at the other end of police ? For God's sake , pick up the phone and just ring the dispatcher and give them closure on it , because it's really important , really important , because they really do take it on , whether we like it or not or however we think of them .

Speaker 1 51:37

Give them closure because they're human beings and it's a bloody tough job 100% , and when I was a sergeant I really didn't get on my team too much , but if I heard them being disrespectful on the radio , that is something that we would have a strong conversation about , because they're the angel on the radio .

Speaker 2 51:57

And remember , you also don't know what's going on in their environment , where they are as well , because , just like you're dealing with a lot of bureaucracy out and about and that particular supervisor is coming to the job and you don't want them , they're dealing with bureaucracy at their end as well and hamstrung by what they're doing , and they've got 100 voices in their ears wanting direction at the same time as well . I love that and I think that's really good , and I agree too . Wouldn't hesitate to pick up the phone and have a chat with someone if they decided that they were going to take out their bad day on a dispatcher . Not their problem , not their fault , it's not their circus and it's not their monkeys . I've just absolutely loved this chat and I've said this before , and we must get you back and have a chat about things down the track , because I really feel it's very relatable .

Speaker 2 52:42

There's a lot of people in a lot of agencies that are going to listen to this worldwide , that are going to go . Oh my God , like I need to read this book , and I hope that everybody the other thing that are unsung heroes as well , without any doubt , which will totally , totally relate to this book , and that's because I coach a lot of nurses . Nurses will relate to this as well . Just because it says law enforcement people , please do not let that put you off . What happened is happening in all sorts of agencies at the moment and it's really , really important that people understand it . I can tell you now , if you go to Audible and you listen to this book , I think Maxima takes two and a half hours . I'll correct you on your number of pages too , nick . I've got it in front of me . It's 102 . It's not even 102 . It's about 101 and a half . So you were pretty close . It's even less . It's easy to read . Oh , the one thing that I did forget and that I want to really talk about , which is important I sent you a picture the other day that had left the book lying around and my mum picked it up .

Speaker 2 53:39

Now my mum's 85 years old . She's watched the sun go through law enforcement for the best part of almost 40 years right , and she didn't understand the last three years Couldn't get ahead of her . She's very , very old school . If you brush yourself off and off , you go , and of course we've all been down that . You brush yourself off and off you go , you move , you change you do . Whatever , she doesn't understand what it is that's going on .

Speaker 2 54:00

She picked this book up , she started reading it and she got to you know he's got about a third of the way in and then she couldn't absorb it anymore because

Law Enforcement Book Recommendation for Families

Speaker 2 54:07

it was so overwhelming to her . She put it down and she picked it up the next day and she smashed it . She finished the book , she put the book down and she looked at me and she goes I now actually understand I want you to know this as the author of this book , because it's so important , because you're sitting where you're sitting over there in the US and I'm all the way over here in Melbourne and Australia and my mum read this book and it opened an empathetic and a really quite emotional chat between her and I for hours around this , and I know that's your intention with the book . This is not just for law enforcement people . This is for their families as well , and I highly recommend that people pass this onto their partners , whether they're in law enforcement , whether they're not .

Speaker 2 54:50

If you're a first responder , I highly recommend that you get this book , read it actually listen to it , because it's in Nick's voice . Have a listen to it and also pass it back onto your partner , because it will answer a number of questions for them that they didn't understand about what you're actually going through . And that it's not just you , because you can like you highlighted as well , because you are the common denominator . You are made to feel like you are the problem , but you are not , and I think that's something that's really , really important that people understand that it's a worldwide pandemic epidemic , it's crisis and it needs to be addressed and dealt with . So for that , nick , I thank you so much .

Speaker 1 55:33

Thank you , and when you sent that picture over , it was absolutely amazing . That was the purpose of the book . It's just amazing . To see the book still in the top 25 of law enforcement books three years later just absolutely blows my mind . Every time I get an alert from Amazon , I'm truly blessed and honored . I just never in my wild imagination , when I put that book out , I really honestly thought it was just going to be buried in the six million books that Amazon has .

Speaker 2 56:02

Here we are . I'm talking to you on a podcast today , helping spread this word to other first responders , and if people go into my Instagram bio , I've actually got a link to my Amazon store in there and the book is listed right there . Police mental barricade . Nick , do you have anything exciting that you'd like to share with the listeners ?

Speaker 1 56:22

You can check out my podcast , so we try and put out one or two episodes a month . It's called the Roll Call Room podcast . Got a co-host . His name is Mark . I got a bunch of books 13 different books . A couple of them are actually law enforcement study guides on how to take promotional processes for detective and for promotion . The thought process behind that was is the only way that we're going to be able to fix things is we need to start having like-minded people , start taking promotional processes and start infiltrating our rank and file . There's that . And then you brought up about spouses . Have a book out with my wife called Two Sides to Every Line it's a great book from a wife's perspective or spouse's perspective of law enforcement . So I highly encourage folks to read that or give that to your spouse , because they are on the ride along with you . So that's important . If you ever need to get a hold of me , you can reach me at nick at rollcallroomcom .

Speaker 2 57:18

And I think what that highlights is anyone listening to this . So if you're in leadership and you're actually listening to this this is not a bash session over leadership . Nick has written books to actually try and help the future leaders and maybe , if you're listening to this with a insincere intention , maybe you might want to pick up one of those books and have a bit of a read of it and it might actually help you to really be happy when you lie in bed at night , because you've got great people underneath you and you're supporting them , and I think that's something that's really important . So I want people to know Nick's not just bitter and twisted and just out to slay . He's actually trying to make a difference and help people in this area , because I would go out on a limb and say that a lot of suicides from law enforcement down the track are caused by the internal problems .

Speaker 2 58:07

It's not what members are actually members , officers , whatever you want to call people are actually witnessing and seeing in the job . It's actually compounded because if we support and we help , then what we do is we find that these people would still be with us today , because 2024 , I think I saw recent figures 126 deaths in the US or something that's disgusting . It really is . That's so sad because it's not just 126 officers or former officers that are gone . That's 126 separate families that are impacted by that forever , and that's what we really need to do . Nick , where can people actually find you ?

Speaker 1 58:46

You can find me at rollcallroomcom . You can find me on Amazon , in particular . Just type in Nicholas Regiro or Police Mental Barricade and then it'll link you over to the author page and that's where the other books are . Every time somebody purchases a book on Amazon , I give away a free e-copy to a fellow law enforcement officer for free .

Speaker 2 59:08

I love that . That's so good , and I will put the links to everything that Nick's mentioned there in the show notes so that people don't have to try and remember or write it down or try and work out how to spell Regiro . It'll all be there . No problems about that at all . I've just won billions of dollars and what I do is because I've done that . Just talking to you has just absolutely made my day . It really has . I hold you in high esteem with what you're doing .

Speaker 2 59:31

I do listen to the Rollcallroom podcast . I get a lot out of it . It's a laugh , it's funny , but it's sad at the same time , unfortunately , and you and Mark certainly band very , very well together . It's great . So I'll put a link to everything in there . But because I've had you on the podcast and because I've got just so much money coming out of everywhere I use this closing question to everybody that I speak to and if I bought you a whole lot of our house anywhere in the world , but you've got to live in it for six months , you can't just say , oh yeah , I'll build it here . You've got to live in it for six months of the year and it can't be where you are now , where do you want me to buy it or build it for you ?

Speaker 1 1:00:04

Oh , man , that's a good question . I think I would probably say the Caribbean . I'm trying to go further south , not have any winter . I moved from New York City to Virginia . The aspiration is to get somewhere where I can wear shorts 24-7 .

Speaker 2 1:00:18

You mean , like me , I never had a shorts . I'm only ever in shorts and thongs , or flip flops , as you call them . Yeah , in Virginia , right now it's cold .

Speaker 1 1:00:27

We've got a snowstorm coming tomorrow , so I'm just done with it . I'm too old to shovel . Yeah , my back is all broken up from being a cop , so I think my body deserves some sun 70 degree weather year-round .

Speaker 2 1:00:40

Yeah , I think you do as well , nick , you've done great work , and could you imagine opening the laptop while you're sitting there on the sun lounge looking out at the ocean in the Caribbean ? I'll tell you what the words would just flow and flow and flow . I'm tipping that the first two words , one would probably start with G and the other one with F , and it would be just . You know , that would be that because you're living the dream , doing what you're doing there . So I'm going to build this place wherever you want in the Caribbean . You just have to go and find the location . We'll build the house , we'll put you and the leading lady in the family in it and you can just live happily ever after , because you've done a great job and I really appreciate you coming onto the show . Thank you , nick , so much . Thank you again .

Speaker 1 1:01:16

Thank you for having me .

Speaker 2 1:01:17

And there you have it . That's Nick Ruggiero . He's amazing . I don't want people to think that Nick is just one of those people that's better and twisted , because I really did cover off on that in the podcast . Nick's done some great work and he really has , and if you look at the other books that he's written as well , those books are actually steering people in the direction of how we can actually improve it . So some of these people need to be actually reading these books and understanding from the grunts on the ground where the problems are actually lying at the moment or what the perception of it is and if it's the perception , it's actually not wrong , because that's that person's perception .

Speaker 2 1:01:55

It's a brutal podcast because it is calling out the people who absolutely hate being called out . If you're one of those people that'll listen to this and you're going to come after me , just think before you do stop and have a think as to whether you're actually adding to the problem or whether you're fixing the problem , because everyone's aware it's just a matter of what we can do about it , and I'm trying to bring awareness to people so that they don't feel so alone in this world . If you got something out of that podcast . I'd greatly appreciate it If you would please go over and support Nick Ruggiero with his work and the Roll Call Room podcast and therollcallroomcom . Go over and support them , and Nick and I would greatly appreciate that .

Speaker 2 1:02:38

If you've listened to this podcast and you got something out of it , please reshare it , tag us in it and let us know what you got out of it , because that's what this is all about . It's about bringing awareness so that people don't feel so alone in what they're actually dealing with in their own work spaces . As a first responder , we'd also appreciate it if you could actually rate the podcast or review it , and that's it . Thanks so much for listening and I will catch you on the next episode . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to ahealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .