Lighting's Impact on Shift Workers' Health

Speaker 1 0:00

It's 2024 and I want you to pick up a pen , I want you to write this down and I want you to put it in an envelope and put it away for the next 10 years and you can say Roger told you , but I'm here to tell you that I honestly believe that the lighting , the type of lighting that we're using to light our houses , and particularly outside of our circadian rhythm , lighting our night shift 24 seven shift working environments , are going to become the next asbestos . Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified nutritionist , veteran law enforcement officer and 24 seven shift worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers , using evidence-based methods , to not only survive the rigors of shift work but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and well-being so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show and welcome to another episode of a healthy shift podcast . I get great pleasure in welcoming you to today's show . You might think that my intro there was just a little bit dramatic , but I want you to remember this I'm evidence-based and there is more and more evidence now which is actually showing that it is the type of lighting that we are actually using in our shift work environments that are creating the biggest problems for us . I honestly believe that in the next 10 years , led lighting in workplaces will literally end up having a cancer warning on it . Shocking Well , in today's podcast , I actually have a circadian lighting pioneer .

Speaker 1 1:58

His name is Ralph Booth and he works for and started a company , oson . Now he has more than 25 years of experience in the lighting industry , and three years ago he decided to work only on one problem , and that was to ensure that everybody is getting the right light at the right time , and the result is that he founded Oson , which is his company , the company that is producing the world's first true supplementary circadian desk lamp . Now for transparency . I have an Oson loop sitting on my desk in front of me every single day , and I could not speak any more highly of it . I work in this studio and it has no outside windows at all . I wouldn't know if it's daytime , I wouldn't know if it's nighttime , but one thing that it is important to get is the correct blue light at the right time , and one of the biggest problems that we have and you'll hear us discussing this in the podcast today is that we get the wrong spectrum of blue light at the wrong times . We're getting a blue light spectrum during the day which is insufficient , which is when we're using inside light , obviously , and then when we're working overnight , we're getting too much of the blue light spectrum .

Speaker 1 3:20

To explain a lot further about his light and how it works and what it actually does and how it came about , I want to welcome my guest , ralph Booth , to the show , because Ralph is going to break it all down . It might be a little bit science-y for you this one , but stay with it , because there's some gold in here and you're going to learn a lot more about light in the coming years . And Ralph Booth , welcome to the show . How are you this morning ?

Speaker 2 3:49

I'm very well , thanks , roger .

Speaker 1 3:51

Excellent . I want to say thank you very , very much for actually joining me on this show , because I've got to tell you I'm sitting here and you know , because you've already picked it , because you can see it reflecting in my glasses here but I've actually got one of your products sitting on my desk here which I've been using for a few months now . I'm absolutely elated with it and I want to talk all about this product because it is an absolute piece of gold for people and I think it's going to be helping our shift workers enormously . So thank you so much for joining us on the show today .

Light's Importance for Human Health

Speaker 1 4:25

Now I've given a bit of an introduction in relation to you , but I'd love you to tell us and our listeners the story about what led you to do what you're actually doing today .

Speaker 2 4:39

Madness . Really it's a bit of a long story actually , roger . So I'll start right at the start of how I become aware of the problem . I've obviously worked in the lighting industry for a number of years , which we'll go into shortly , and as part of that I would go to big industry events which would have a lot of international speakers and around . About 15 years ago it became oh well , I become acutely aware of the dialogue was around the effect that light was having on human health and I think this really interests me .

Speaker 2 5:16

And then , subsequent to that , it was a bit of an unfortunate incident in my life and that my partner , the mother of my children , alan , she got acute leukemia and ended up in Christchurch Hospital here in New Zealand , and I don't know if many people understand when you get leukemia . It's a very serious disease and what happens . She ended up needing a stem cell transplant and as part of that treatment you end up in isolation wards in hospital for weeks on end . So to be prepared for that stem cell transplant , they have to basically obliterate your lymphatic system , kill all your ass or your bone marrow and then they transplant a new one in there . And I mean these weeks in isolation .

Speaker 2 6:02

I knew that the lighting and the natural light she was getting wasn't going to align her body clock and I was concerned about it and I actually at the time gave her a blue light , sort of not quite as similar to what we've produced , but I gave her a blue light to actually try and help her . And I also knew at that point that Christchurch was planning a brand new hospital and I naively thought that , with all of the knowledge that we were gaining on the subject , that the new hospital would have isolation wards that would have lighting that was going to be in tune with our biology and actually be able to properly align those patients body clocks . But unfortunately I can tell you that hospital's been built and that didn't happen . And yeah , so that's , I said , that made me angry . I think it was you , Roger , that says that's not anger , that's passion . Yeah , that's right , and it was yeah . And it made me start a journey of trying to make a difference in the world and with the hope that we can get this right . That's how .

Speaker 1 7:19

I started Fantastic . Now I want to go back over some of that and I just want to hear in your own words let's just go back over the first thing . So one of the biggest problems that we have to those that are not sure what we're actually speaking about here and we are going to unpack all of this in the podcast , and I think this is really important for people to understand it is super important that our body goes through a light and a dark cycle , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 7:47

Absolutely yeah it is fundamental to human health .

Speaker 1 7:50

Yeah , exactly , it is integral to our human health because it works through our timing of our hormones . It works through everything . Just runs on this biological clock which is located seated in the brain , in the supracuse medic nucleus . So we need to understand that light is the trigger to reset our circadian rhythm . Now , if we think about it and you spoke about it with your partner when you're in a hospital and this is where I feel from my nurse clients as well when you're in a hospital , you are exposed to this blue light all night . All night as well as during the day , like you might be sleeping , but every time you open your eyes you're exposing yourself to that blue light , because you should be getting that blue light at that time , right during the day , but at nighttime we should not be getting the blue light . And this is where your partner suffering from a disease like leukemia it needs everything in their favor , doesn't it ?

Speaker 2 9:43

It absolutely does . I just want to go back to one point there , roger , is the blue light that we've got in our artificial light and buildings isn't enough to really make a difference to aligning our body clocks during the day , and then the same light is too much at night . So that's the first point .

Speaker 1 10:03

Good point .

Speaker 2 10:06

And you're right , people like Ellen . There's people in isolation woods all around the world right now . I know that won't be getting what they need . Hers was further complicated because she had a lovely view outside , but they put two-way glass on and basically the natural light was so filtered that it wouldn't have the spectrum that she needed . So , yeah , it's amazing . I just want to say one other thing , because it sounds like , yeah , it sounds very dire . I want to just say that Ellen survived and right at this moment she's studying . She's at Spanish School in Guatemala and I'm joining here in a couple of days time . So I don't want people to think it was a complete disaster , but yeah , it could have been a better experience .

Speaker 1 10:53

I wonder . I think that's fantastic news and I'm glad that you clarified that too , because I'm going to be honest with you , even though I've met you , I was unaware of that and I didn't want to go down that line , so I'm really pleased Now . Now you're talking light , right , and light is obviously very important . Now when I turn the light on , I see light and it's light and I can see , and that's it . But you've got a background with a lot of experience in lighting , ralph , could you just explain to us what your background

Lighting's Impact on Human Biology

Speaker 1 11:21

is and what your experience is around light ? What led you to do what you were doing there ? Because you've you know with Ellen , you've gone . Okay , she needs blue light . How did you know that at that particular point in time ? So what's your background and experience ?

Speaker 2 11:36

Okay . So in the mid-90s I actually won a scholarship to study illumination engineering and when I completed that I actually ended up working as a lighting consultant for five years and I did all sorts of commercial lighting , from doing high-end housing to I actually did the lighting design for the World Softball Championships in 2004 . So I was working in a lot of high-end commercial lighting . In 2004, . The same year as I did that design for the softball , I actually started business with another fellow and we've been in business for 20 years next year and we've built a very successful business on what I call our core traditional lighting . But it was on the journey of doing my lighting experience . I realized that what we're doing and then when I say we I mean the lighting industry , the way we're actually lighting buildings and dealing with light , isn't fulfilling the physiological need that humans have . We're great at doing visual lighting , but we're not doing the lighting that our biology needs . And it's not surprising because we've only known about the biological side of it . We only discovered the receptors in our retina that actually are sensitive to this blue light that actually aligns our body clock 20 years ago . But we've sort of got ourselves in a position where we've had a big roll out in the last 10 , 15 years well , less than 15 years of LEDs , and with LEDs we've created the most spacious or efficient light source we possibly can for vision , but unfortunately it's got a dip , particularly during the day of the light . We need to properly align our body clock . So firstly I want to say I'm not a scientist , I'm not an academic , so I am a lighting guy . I'm a lighting guy through and through .

Speaker 2 13:38

But I need to just explain a little bit about that . How that human eye works and you mentioned a little bit about it before , roger is in our retinas . We have some receptors . We've got our rods they are pretty much for night vision and we've got cones , which are our day vision . We've known about these receptors for a long time , around the turn of this century . So what is it now ? 23 years ago they made a discovery of these other receptors which have a big , long name intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells , and they contain a chemical called melanopsin and that is sensitive to light that peaks at 480 , so 480 nanometers , 480 nanometers . And if people go , okay , what does that mean to me ? What does 480 nanometers mean ? Think about if you saw that the appearance would look like blue sky , right , it's weird how we have these receptors that have this chemical in it that's happens to be sensitive to the light color of blue sky . Isn't that remarkable ?

Speaker 1 14:47

It is crazy yeah .

Speaker 2 14:49

Yeah , and these cells , they then take a different pathway to the brain . You mentioned about the super chrysometric , nuclear . They make their way to the super chrysometric and think of that as your body's conductor , and that's giving us all of our timings , of our whole metabolic function .

Speaker 1 15:08

Yeah , very important . Love that Now . Yeah , yeah , to unpack some of that there . Love that . This is why and I now understand , because I've obviously well , I've well and truly read Russell Foster's book in . It's an absolute ripper , and I'm going to share that into the show notes because I just I think his book is the number one book I've got it on my bookshelf over here . I could remember if it was time , life or lifetime , but lifetime and I've got it here . And this is why this is very , very new research that's been done that we're running . When I say very new , this is literally in the last 20 to 30 years that we've discovered all of this relationship , and I know Professor Foster has spoken about this is why they do everything they possibly can now to save the eye in blind people . So , even though they're blind and they've got no vision no , they can't see anything at all , it's just dark these receptors in the eye still register light to the brain , don't they ?

Speaker 2 16:17

That's correct . If you've still got functioning intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells , yes , you will still get a proper alignment to the day night cycle if exposed to appropriate light at the appropriate time , and how important is that to them biologically ?

Speaker 1 16:35

Because blind people can literally have absolutely no idea where they're at in time and space , can't they ? Which causes all sorts of problems with them being awake at night , sleeping during the day , mental health issues . They have mental health issues because it's so important for us to be in line with time and space , and what I want to do is I want to just cash in . I want people to have a really good think about where we're going with this particular conversation in relation to shift workers , because light is 99% of your problem with your sleep , with your mental health , with so many things . Well , we're going to throw nutrition in there as well , but I would prioritize light as a priority , as in so important .

Speaker 1 17:22

So we're going to get further into that , because it's a fascinating chat and Professor Foster , as well as Martin Moeid , which we will speak about Dr Martin Moeid as well in relation to his discoveries , because it was his team that actually discovered the supracuse metineuclease . I can't remember when now , but it was certainly in the last 30 years or 30 or 40 years that they've discovered what it does and the importance of it to our biological functioning . Now your company , which you started ? Is this the company that you started 20 years ago ?

Speaker 2 18:02

No , no . So I just wanted to carry on with that lighting part of it . Where I've come from , as I realized , we're not delivering the light in our buildings and I'm talking specifically workplaces , because they could be at home , but that's what the area I was working in that so many people are spending a majority of their time now indoors working , and you've got to remember that's a fundamental change from where we've come from . I knew that we're not getting that spectrum we need , so I decided to do something about it , and that's when I started , and my business partner was right behind me . We started a new startup called Oson so that we could just work on this problem .

Speaker 1 18:44

Love this and I love this and I want to cash in on this situation , because this light is what is causing so many problems for people , the light that we're getting at night . Now , we've always been told , with your phone , your mobile phone , blue light , blue light , it's impacting on your sleep . It's impacting on your sleep . But I just want to go over this for a second , because this is what I've actually learned .

Speaker 1 19:06

That's a forester and Ian Dunnican as well , from Perth as well as there's one other , I can't remember , but they're all on the same page that it's not actually the blue light that's impacting on our sleep , it's on getting to sleep . So we pick up their phone , we look at it and we go , oh okay , because the actual research shows that on an average , it only inhibits our sleep by about seven minutes thereabouts . But it's that blue light exposure that's impacting on us biologically in other areas that's causing us all sorts of problems . So I'm going to unpack that later on , because we're going to talk about that Now . Your company that you started is called Oson . Now , I love this because I had no idea , but I want you to tell me what Oson stands for and why did you call it Oson ?

Speaker 2 20:01

So Oson's basically a short for outside in .

Speaker 2 20:05

I love it the outside in , in our case is bring the outside light indoors . So the artificial light that we all have in our buildings , like think of a building that doesn't have light in it . They don't exist . Basically , there's humans in them . They have to have light or they have good daylight integration . So the ones that the buildings that haven't got that daylight integration or haven't got good daylight , come into the buildings . We can bring the spectrum that we know that humans need during the day and night into their work spaces .

Speaker 1 20:40

Now , that's what it's called and that's why it is called outside in , because and I just want to explain to people as well that I was with Ralph I met up with Ralph and he carries a light meter , as a light man would right , carries a light meter around and , ladies and gentlemen that are actually listening to this , I really want you to understand this , because even at the time he was showing me , I wasn't fully understanding . But I'm going to explain it to you as a layman that doesn't fully understand light . Ralph went to an LED light and actually put it onto the LED light . And Ralph , in your own words , can you just explain the LED lights that we're installing in buildings now ? Because we're going with really efficient light , like it's 12 volt it's or even lower , it's really bright and it's very , very energy efficient because it's running on nearly nothing power at all . But what's the problem with that ?

Speaker 2 21:41

So with the LED lights that we're putting in , just about ubiquity right through all our buildings . Now , if I , the actual meter I had was a spectrometer and that looks at the visual radiation , so what the human eye can see , and shows it really through the color ranges of what the human can see . If you look at a white LED and I call them white LED and that's what we're fitting in our homes and our offices , our factories , our retail stores this very efficient light , if you look at it , it's made for human vision and it's made by actually doping a blue LED chip with white phosphors to give the white light . So the blue light behind it excites the white phosphors to emit light , the blue light . If you scrubbed all the phosphors off and then looked at what that blue light , it would be sitting at 450 nanometers and if I go and put the spectrometer on it , it would show you straight 450 , then put the phosphors back on , it would fill in the rest of it . So we have white light and those phosphors get excited to emit that light .

Speaker 2 22:52

The problem is , if I showed you and I don't know if you'd be able to bring up what it looks like on the podcast , roger , but it would have a real big peak of blue light at 450 , then a massive dip down at around about 480 nanometers and then it would climb up and you'll have your green lights , your reds and fill in the rest of the spectrum . Unfortunately , that 480 nanometers around there is right where we need that light to go into our eye , to go into those IPGRCs , to actually give us the light to align our body clock . So we've got a problem in that we're made this great light for vision but we're missing the part of the spectrum we need .

Speaker 1 23:34

And going even further . So we've got these energy efficient homes and energy efficient offices that are during the day , which isn't really giving us enough blue light that we actually need to trigger our circadian rhythm . But then we look at hospitals or police stations , fire stations , ambulance stations or anywhere where anybody is working , call centres , where people are working overnight , and what are we getting then ?

Speaker 2 24:03

We're getting blue light , which is so we've really made a bit of a mess really . So what we've got is not enough for the right blue light during the day and then really coming into our lives massively . Now we've got blue light at night . In our homes , on our screens , in our offices , in our call centres , in our hospitals . We have now a source of light that's got this peak of blue light and if you look at where we've come from , back to how we evolved , we never had blue light at night . Really , it just wasn't around .

Speaker 1 24:43

That's right , and I'm going to go another bit further because I know you'll want to talk about this anyway , so let's just address that right now . What's the danger of getting this blue light exposed at night , like in these hospitals ? Like we see , a lot of research is done on nurses in particular , and what are we seeing in the nursing fraternity , these days more prevalent than ever .

Speaker 2 25:12

Well , I believe that the Danish government's now compensating shift work nurses in Denmark that go on to develop breast cancer . The link now I don't want to scare people , but I think that the evidence is clear that the link to what we call Ellen that's artificial light at night of the wrong intensities and the wrong spectrum has some very serious long-term health consequences , including particularly hormonal cancers . A lot higher incidences of breast and prostate cancer . Yeah , that's right .

Speaker 1 25:48

It's actually scary , it is ridiculously scary , and I know you and I are both not scientists or researchers , but I know Martin Maureed actually is and he has spoken quite categorically at the link between that blue light exposure at night .

Speaker 1 26:04

That particular spectrum of blue light exposure at night , the biological impact that it's having , is directly responsible or contributing majorly to breast and prostate cancer and other hormonal cancers or other you know , because of the disruption to this circadian rhythm .

Speaker 1 26:22

Now , we're not experts in this area and I encourage people to go off and ask questions and make their own inquiries in relation to this and I would strongly recommend that people do a little bit more reading around this moving forward , particularly people that are doing a night shift , working under artificial light , to find out from their employer , from their employer , and start asking questions around the light that you are actually working under , because it's not about how bright it is or how dim it is , it's about the spectrum of light and people need to understand that . Even with a blue light , turning it down is one thing , but you're still getting that blue light that you don't want to be getting at that particular time of the night . Now , how are we going to address this . I know one person that's addressed this and addressed this pretty well , and he's sitting in front of me here .

Speaker 2 27:13

Yep , just one point there , roger . I think that you can't take the two things and say it's just blue light . I think intensity and spectrum they go hand

Importance of Light and Modern Lifestyles

Speaker 2 27:23

in hand . So if you have a very small amount of light , for a little bit of blue light at night , I think the impacts would be quite small . But that's not what's happening . We're getting way too much . So yeah , they go hand in hand . So , yeah , spectrum is really important , but we can't say the intensity is not either . So yeah , I think that's just one small . Sorry , what was your question ?

Speaker 1 27:49

again , no one thing that is important to understand , and I want everybody to really make a note of this as well . This is emerging research , and when I say emerging , we're only talking in the last 20 to 30 years . All this research is sort of more , and they're more and more investigating this and more looking at it , but it is definitely an area that we need to be doing a lot more and , in fact , a lot of research papers say that there's enough justification here to do more research in this area and we need to do more research in this area .

Speaker 2 28:21

Look , the more research is done , the more the all that I can see is , the more emphatic is that we need to do something about this .

Speaker 1 28:29

Yeah .

Speaker 2 28:30

I agree I just one thing I like to talk about is really how important this relationship and I say everyone has a relationship with light , what's yours like ? But it's fundamentally important and I don't think it's like any relationship if you're going to have a good result , you need to put some time and effort into it . Unfortunately , we aren't putting much time and effort into our relationship with light , and modern lifestyles are really starting to interfere with it . And if you think about how we've evolved , you think about even only 150 years ago , before the advent of a lot of artificial lighting , how people were living and working . That's a massive difference . So if we go back , if you just dream for me a moment , we go back that 150 years in our homes just about all of our light sources were flame based During the day you probably find that people were on a slightly different work life schedule , if you like .

Speaker 2 29:33

They would be getting up early when they work . They'd be even working outdoors . If they worked indoors , the architecture had to be designed to support good daylight integration because we just didn't have the light sources to actually design buildings where you didn't have daylight . And just think about how important the invention of artificial light is . You could say it's really has changed society , and if you ask people about how many inventors they could name , well , if I said who was the inventor of the light bulb , I'd say nine out of 10 people would be able to answer I think they , and it revolutionized so much . But we didn't have the understanding of what was starting to happen and , unfortunately , of technology . The spectrum and intensities , in a way , have only got worse .

Speaker 2 30:21

Yeah , because we're trying to make it more efficient , aren't ?

Speaker 1 30:24

we . We're focusing on efficiency for power and also for brighter light , but we're not focusing on biological efficiency , correct ? Yeah , that's the bottom . That's the actual bottom line there , which I think is super , super important for people to understand , and that was a really good explanation around . Going back to where we've come from , and let's have a look at this too , ralph , I'm just gonna comment on this because we've just come through COVID . Right , we've just come through COVID .

Speaker 1 30:56

So , since 2020 , a lot of people started working from home . So they weren't getting any light at all other than you know , because they would crawl out of bed . They'd be in their home office under the internal light and then what they would do is they would hardly ever leave home because a lot of places were locked down and couldn't leave home . So they're living under this artificial light , go to bed into the darkness , get up , repeat , rinse and repeat . Now , here in Melbourne right , I can talk about it here in Melbourne , because we were basically kept prisoners in our home for nearly two years , on and off , and we're gonna see some serious impact of this down the track , because now we have learned that we can work from home and people are encouraging people to work from home , and people are actually working from home and they're not going into the office as much .

Speaker 1 31:48

Like everyone used to get up and used to have a shower , have breakfast , and then they would walk to the railway station or they'd be driving their car , they'd be in the light , seeing the light , the actual daylight , and then they would go into their office . So at least it gave their circadian rhythm a chance to reset . And then they would come home and they do the light again on their way home , other than if you lived in way north or way south , where you didn't get that light in the morning and night , but still we can talk about that . But people have become very , very indoors , people under this light , which is serving them absolutely no purpose biologically at all . In fact it's damaging it in a big way . And we're still going on down this track because a lot of people have not returned to offices because we've learnt that we can actually stay at home and work from home , and I think this is a big problem . But , ralph , you've got a solution for these people , haven't you ?

Speaker 2 32:46

I have . So I really wanted to make a difference in this space and I think why I started Oson is I really wanted to help people . And it was actually a bit of a penny drop moment in the development of the product which is called the Oson Loop , in that I'd spent my whole life working well , pretty much my whole working career working on lighting , buildings , lighting projects and I started Oson with the idea of just doing specific areas of those projects and I got this illusion to realise that the same barriers to success were still there . So I turned the whole paradigm on its head and decided I'm gonna fix this problem one person at a time . I'm going to make a supplementary light that any individual can use at their place of work , primarily a desk , and use our light , our lamp , our circadian desk lamp , to alleviate the problem and make a difference , and that's why I've actually started doing what I'm doing . So I really wanna give people the light that they actually require and need .

Speaker 1 34:00

Right now and from that , trying to help , the Oson Loop was born . Now I've got the Oson Loop right here and I just wanna talk about it from my perspective and I know this is gonna seem like a sponsored podcast , but I want people to totally understand the reason why this is actually done , because I wouldn't have someone on , I can tell the audience .

Speaker 2 34:28

I have not sponsored anything . I haven't paid you as a sponsor .

Speaker 1 34:31

Absolutely . You haven't paid me one cent for this , so I'm absolutely speaking from my own passion about this product . My studio , where I am right now , doesn't have one window in it and in fact , it's like a cave right , it's a garage without windows . There's no skylight , there's no nothing . And when I was talking to Ralph , ralph actually reached out and approached me because he heard my podcast with Olivia Walsh and he reached out to me and he was talking about the Oson Loop and I went oh my God , ralph , you're not gonna believe it , but I actually work in all day in this studio and I've got no natural light at all . He goes Roger , I've got a product for you . Hence , I have an Oson Loop and I have it sitting here on my desk and it's burning bright blue at the moment because it is well , I'm just saying the time it's 10 o'clock in the morning here for me . Obviously , you're ahead of time at the moment , but it's burning bright blue for me .

Speaker 1 35:31

Now , when I say bright blue , I mean bright blue . Now , this is not a light that sits in front of you and shines into your eyes . This is something and it doesn't need to be because of the sensors which you can pronounce , but I can't , even with a New Zealand accent . You can pronounce it , which is great , but I can . Actually , I have this Oson Loop here and it would be at 45 degrees to my face and it's down and a bit lower and away and it doesn't bother me in the slightest as I'm sitting here working . Other than people can catch the reflection of it in my glasses , but it provides blue light . Now , when I come into the studio in the morning , it's actually like a whitey , yellowy color and we're gonna talk about this when we get there . But it's a whitey , yellowy color and as we go through the morning it gets brighter and brighter blue and then it's blue right up at the moment in time to where it goes white again and then in the evening or around six o'clock it goes yellow or orangy yellow color , and to people that have been watching me on my stories , I've actually been showing the spectrums of color and how it changes for me and gives me an indication , because when it's gone yellow I know it's actually time to pack up and go inside , because I can't tell whether it's daylight or nighttime and you get lost in your work . I honestly can say this to your wealth , and I mean this with utmost sincerity . This is a game changer , this Ozone Loop . It has made such a big difference to me and my working in here . It doesn't bother me in any way whatsoever , but I know that it's actually making a difference to my biological clock . Right , because it is . So .

Speaker 1 37:18

We know that you've done this and how you've gone about it , but why did you make this actual desk lamp ? We've probably covered that . As far as why you did it , I'm an individual , so your goal is to put one of these on people's desks . Because corporates are not spending the money , are they ? They're not gonna spend the money on changing all their lighting to a correct spectrum of light because it's not something they can see and they wanna be energy efficient . We'll get there . Relax , we're gonna get there . And the blue light . So talk to me about what was involved in making the Ozone Loop and why you stand right behind

Creating the Oson Loop

Speaker 1 37:57

your product as the best there is in the business of anything .

Speaker 2 38:03

So once I had that penny drop moment , I'm gonna solve this for individuals . I also knew at this point that if I separated out the meaningful spectrum , the spectrum is gonna have an impact on us at 4,180 nanometers . It needed to look like a small piece of the blue sky , and so I started making prototypes myself , pretty much in my garage or on the workbench at work . I could I make a little product that would bring a small slice of the blue sky to your desk , and I probably did this , made prototypes for a good year , and I realized that , yes , I think I can , and I think I can actually put something that's meaningful and would deliver a meaningful amount of light , enough of the right spectrum to actually properly align our body clocks . I then worked with a couple of I say young because I'm a bit of an old dog a couple of young industrial designers . They're both in their late 20s and what I wanna do was make a product that not only would be a small slice of the blue sky on everyone's desk , but would be iconic , looking enough to start a conversation . Cause really , I think the most important thing I can do is start a conversation about this , because the awareness of the problem and the awareness of the importance of it is not high .

Speaker 2 39:30

So my dream was if I could put a loop , say on Roger's desk , I'm gonna get people go , what's that ? And Roger can go . Well , that's my circadian desk lamp . That's giving me the actual spectrum the properly align my body clock . If I can get enough of those conversations going , we will definitely make a difference , and my dream is that people that are working in office will go to the employers and go hey , is this light in tune with my biology ? Will this actually align my ? When we get to that moment , I will feel my job's done , cause the sad part of this is that lighting that is put into your buildings we could have the right spectrum . It's just that less than 0.5% of projects globally have what we would call circadian lighting , and that's defined as lighting that has enough of the right spectrum but is tuned to enough of the right spectrum to align our body clock during the day and then removing that spectrum at night .

Speaker 1 40:34

Okay , and this is what the Oson loop actually does . That's what you've got it doing , because you can't attack the corporates , you're gonna hit them one at a time . Yep , and I've got one on the desk here and it is sexy . That's all I'm gonna say , but I'm happy to talk to corporates .

Speaker 2 40:51

I'm looking for a corporate launch , if you like , for Oson . So put an Oson loop on everyone's desk . I'm definitely want to talk to anyone that wants to do this for their people . I have done a very small business and the actual employer made decision . There was 15 loops put on his staff's desk Last winter . He got such positive feedback from a number of his staff , particularly around feeling lifted moods . Basically , we'll get into that .

Speaker 1 41:23

Now , let's so , we will , but let's go through . So what was involved in actually making the Oson loop ? You've said you've gone prototype , prototype , prototype . I believe you've absolutely nailed the brief to create conversations , because I've had people on my stories go oh my God , what's that ? What is it that's on your desk , that blue thing ? It is sexy , no doubt about it , and it doesn't take up a lot of room . It's pretty good and I think that that's nailing the brief , no doubt about it . Getting conversations around product awareness is definitely the key . So what is it now ?

Speaker 2 42:01

Sorry , yep , to ask you a question . A lot , a lot of hours of development went into it , particularly about getting the appearance of the light right . I really wanted it to appear like the color of the blue sky . I wanted you , roger , when you're sitting down in your basement office or garage office , I should say , I wanted you to feel like you were actually experiencing a bright blue day . But I also wanted to be assured that I was delivering a recognized , certifiable dose of blue light .

Speaker 2 42:33

So what I did in that development ? I spent an extraordinary amount of time of mixing different LEDs to get this recipe right . Then we had to develop the control system for it . So the OASIN loop has a real-time clock in it so you can schedule it to wherever you are in the world , so geolocates off your cell phone . It has an app with it . We had to develop all that , of course , design , and we did this all in-house with a very small team right here in New Zealand . So it was a really hands-on small team . We had the plastic engineers , we had the electronics engineers . I worked really closely on the LED board development because I'm a lighting guy and then , of course , bringing together the overall design and getting it to actually into something that actually worked , looked meaningful and would start the conversation . And I don't know if you know this , roger , but the loop's not by accident and it looks like a loop because it represents the ever-ending cycle of the looping of the day-night cycle .

Speaker 1 43:48

I did not realize that . Genius , I absolutely love it . I absolutely love it . So it's been a big project for you . But , as I said and I'm not paid , and I can clarify quite categorically that Ralph has not paid me for this I just wanted to get Ralph on to talk about it because I'm a fan of this .

Speaker 1 44:09

I see that people that are working from home need one of these on their desk full stop because of what it does . So talk to me about what does the Oson loop actually do ? Tell us . I know this could be confusing for a lot of people to listen to and I know a lot of shift workers are very pragmatic . This is the problem , but what's the solution ? So we've talked about the problem with lighting and it would have lost a lot of people , and I respect that , because people just want the . This is the problem . So we're going to say we're out of sync with light in our everyday life now . We're very out of sync with light . We're getting the wrong light at the wrong times . It's unavoidable at this point in time , but for people that are working from home , it's not avoidable anymore , and it's for people working in an office environment , because you've brought this product , this Oson loop . So what does the Oson loop actually do as it cycles through that 24 hour cycle ?

Speaker 2 45:06

OK , firstly , I'd like to reference publication . Yes , and I was really lucky during the development of this . I was talking to Dr Miriam Munch , who was working at the Sleep Research Center at Massey University in Wellington sorry at this stage and she sent me a draft and a draft copy of the recommendations for daytime , evening and nighttime indoor light exposure to best support physiology and sleep and wakefulness and healthy adults , and that's a very long title , but it was a very important piece of paper for the lighting industry because it was signed by 20 different institutes and universities and research institutions around the world and these are institutes that specialize in sleep , neuroscience , chronology , biological timing , psychology and lighting . So it's a very common and it gave us recommendations about what we need to actually make a difference and those recommendations were made in malinopic effective daylight illuminance . Now , I know these are big words , but they gave us a malinopic equivalent daylight recommendation . So during the day they said we need a minimum of 250 . So I'll shorten that malinopic effective daylight to MEDI MEDI minimum all day and the OSIN loop . I've just had it independently tested in the US in one of the very first circadian lighting labs and I can tell you that on its own it's delivering over 240 MEDI , so there's always going to be some MEDI . So we're well over the minute . In fact it's going to be well over 300 all day , but in the evening when it transitioned . So I always wanted to have this artificial sunrise and sunset . When you sit in the amber , roger , it's only delivering 8 MEDI and the recommendation , starting three hours before bedtime , is that we have no more than 10 . So if you have your loop on in the office , even on full amber , I can tell you that it's great before bedtime .

Speaker 2 47:34

But they made a further recommendation . They talk about our bedroom and they say the darker the better in your bedroom , but we need less than one MEDI in our bedroom . And if you dim the Oson loop down on your app in the evening to 5% , it is less than one MEDI . So it's letting you , showing you what sort of light you need , and I can categorically tell you that it will deliver everything that's recommended for , basically , for human health . Now , just on that bedroom , and something you listeners might be really interested in is if you've got a LED TV at the end of your bed , think seriously about it , because I can tell you it won't be delivering what you need for good sleep and if you're on other screens like your laptop or phone , shift them to night function . And I applaud some of the tech companies like Apple and Samsung . It doesn't work as well . I've tested it . But Apple's are particularly effective and they put on these night shift type functions and you've got to ask yourself why are they putting them there ? They're actually in the know on this and , furthermore , I applaud Apple Once again their latest Apple Watch . They've got a function in there now that actually measures how much day basically brightness or daylight exposure you get during the day . So it's letting people because I think people massively underestimate how much light they're getting during the day and that's a little bit off top . But these are really important measurements and that's what the light I was given this paper and it allowed me to actually nail in on the development of the loop to deliver what the expert consensus is telling us that we need to deliver .

Speaker 2 49:19

Now for an example if you're working in an office , like maybe your garage office , if it was lit to the lighting standards which are pretty well set globally around the world they talk about horizontal lux and basically your office lighting is 500 lux horizontally on the desk .

Speaker 2 49:40

And when we go into measuring for mountainopic lux , we always measure vertically at the eye here . So we hold our light meter , if you like , right where the human eye would be . So we measure at 1.2 meters off vertically . If I was in a standard office , we're gonna be , if we're lucky , around 100 MEDI , but the recommendation is a minimum of 250 . So you can see how little we got . And if I come into your office , roger , and measured well I don't know what lighting you've got in there because home lighting you haven't got those standards you would in a commercial building I dare say we're probably 100 MEDI . If we're lucky it's probably lower . But if you turn your Ozone loop on , you're gonna be whatever you've got in there , plus 240 . And you're getting what you need . So that's what it's doing , that's what it's delivering .

Speaker 1 50:34

I love it . Now I've got this paper , I've got it actually up in front of me at the moment , the paper that Ralph is referring to . I will link this in the show notes for people to go and have their own read of it , Because I think it is important , I know . Once again , I just want to clarify . A lot of shift workers tired , fatigued . They just want to know what the problem is and how to fix it , and I think that this is one definite way to help in relation to that . Just to clarify and I just want to back over that , just to explain to people the loop was not tested against the light standards . Ralph understood the light standards and built the loop to those light standards and then had it tested to make sure it complied . That's correct .

Speaker 2 51:21

That's correct . I got offered . I had the loop in the US in May and there's a big organized test organization in the US called UL . You might have seen the symbol on a lot of products , particularly American , but you see them on power supplies . Not . They test multitudes , they're massive regulatory organization for testing . They've set up a circadian measurement lab and they offered . They were very intrigued with the Ocin loop . They offered to test it for me . They tested it and it's come out like the results were better than I actually imagined they were going to be . They're really it's come out amazingly and of importance to that , they're really focused also on glare , because it's all very well to say , have this light , this will give you the circadian light , you know , but a lot of them are incredibly glaring and they're actually , you know , good lighting . You've got to have something that's visually comfortable and this came out at really quite low , quite low glare also , and that was also because I have this lighting background and producing those some loop , I wanted to make something that was visually comfortable .

Speaker 1 52:32

Yeah .

Speaker 2 52:33

Usable all day .

Speaker 1 52:35

It has to be all day , yeah , because the recommendations all day and now when people are staring at their computer screens , we get eye fatigue and we do . When you're looking at a computer screen all day , you get eye fatigue and that's literally from the glare from the screen . The loop doesn't do this , I can assure you . The loop doesn't do this at the same time as delivering the correct amount of blue light to you . It's fantastic . Now I just want to step forward , because I've been talking about the sad lamp and I do really want to talk about .

Speaker 1 53:06

I want to wrap this up a little bit with the difference between a sad lamp and the osan loop . I know I understand the sad lamp delivers . No , actually , I'm going to let you explain it . You're the lighting guy . So a sad lamp that's advertised , that's everywhere . You see them on Amazon , you see them on eBay . You see companies that are selling sad lamps Happy lamp , yep , at 10,000 , 10,000 lux of light is what they purport them to be advertised at . So everybody looks at it and goes , oh , I need 10,000 lux of light from a sad lamp . Can you tell me , is that beneficial ? Why is it ? Or why is it not compared to the osan loop ? Now , there's a disclaimer here . Obviously , rolf's got his product , so you can work between the two , but let's hear it from a lighting perspective .

Speaker 2 53:55

I'm going to help you with the disclaimer , because I never made the osan loop to be an SAD lamp or a sad lamp . Yeah , first thing , it

Blue Light's Impact on Mood and Rhythm

Speaker 2 54:01

was never in my attention . I've actually developed the osan loop to solve the problem of getting circadian light , so delivering circadian alignment . However , what I've noticed and because last winter was my first winter in the southern hemisphere of having anecdotal customer feedback is that a lot of our users reported and they noticed that a big difference in mood , in their own wellbeing of mood , compared to other winter . So basically , the winter blues , which is basically a form of sad .

Speaker 2 54:37

It's not clinically diagnosed , but I myself feel this often in winter . I start feeling a bit down about it . I always used to think it was cause of the temperature . I've actually realized as I've got older it's actually about light . It's not the cold , it's light , and so people were saying I'm feeling way more uplifted . I don't . Only thing I put it down to is the osan loop . It's amazing , and so that made me start really thinking about that , and since then , I've been alluded to a study that was published in 2013 that compares a 10,000 lux sad lamp with narrow energy blue light , exactly the same peak as our osan loop and but with only 100 lux . So this was 100 lux measured at the eye and the findings were incredible . It was a basically delivering the same results , but with 100 times less light . So it's showing that this , this , basically this 480 nanometers is having a way bigger effect , beyond just a circadian alignment . I think it's so important to human health we're just starting to understand it .

Speaker 1 55:46

Amazing , Amazing . So because I know I pushed out the sad lamp and I was looking at it and in theory the sad lamp is 100% spot on , correct as far as getting that resetting the circadian rhythm and getting that early .

Speaker 2 56:06

So the sad lamp they generally tell you , because I don't think they're very visually comfortable , they're very uncomfortable to use .

Speaker 1 56:14

Oh very .

Speaker 2 56:15

And it's just using 10 , 15 minutes in the morning . I have evidence that would say that 15 minutes isn't enough to properly align your circadian rhythm at all . I just don't think it's and , because of the way that it's used , I don't think it's something that's as usable . The ozone loop sits in the background , works away all day , every day , and it looks as though it's making a huge difference for people that suffer sad . More important to me is it's great that you feel better in winter , but I know that you're getting this proper circadian alignment . If it happens to work as an sad lamp also , I'm really happy for you . But I'm achieving what I want to do and that's making sure , if you spend the majority of your time in doors , that you're getting this proper light to ensure that proper circadian alignment .

Speaker 1 57:05

Yeah , I agree with that , but I also in the defense . I don't want a poo poo on the sad lamp . And the reason why I don't want to do that is because , from an experienced perspective myself as far as shift work goes , if you are getting up in the dark to go and do a day shift , the loop is not going to actually help you , Just like , hang on , let me just back up from there . If you're a nurse that's getting up out of bed or in the police or paramedic or someone , and you're getting up and you're going to have a shower and you're going to put your face on , get yourself ready in the morning , a sad lamp is actually ideal to help you to get that early light and reset your circadian rhythm before you jump in your car in the darkness and drive off to work . Do you agree ? Is that correct or not ?

Speaker 2 57:56

I think you could use the Oason Loop very effectively , but I'm not going to poo poo it over . If it works for you , it works for you , perfect . One thing I'm not comfortable with is making recommendations to use the light outside of a normal day-night cycle . I'm not qualified to do that , no , so I'm out of my depth when I start talking about scheduling out for shift workers and I know that you can use light to help I'm not actually qualified to make recommendations . Another one .

Speaker 1 58:31

I can only go by experience and just a bit of anecdotal evidence . Myself Do it .

Speaker 2 58:36

Yeah .

Speaker 1 58:36

So if you've got a sad lamp and it's in your bathroom while you're painting your face in the morning , then ideal , just get a bit of light . And Ralph has made the point as well , which I agree with , and so does the reason I agree with , and so does the research . Getting 10 to 15 minutes is still not enough . You still need to be getting more of that to actually rock you over from morning to from overnight to the daytime . I don't want to dwell on it , I just think that the you know there's a difference between the Oason Loop and a commercial sad lamp . I think the loop is doing a great job , but I'm trying to work out .

Speaker 1 59:14

Can I just ask this Actually , yeah , no , I just want to go on and ask this question here , and we've kind of answered it by talking about it . But is all blue light bad ? Like we get this phobia and this fear blue light , blue light , blue light . And people have got their phones switched over tonight , or they don't , or you know , oh , they don't look at their phone . They know they're getting bad blue light . But , in fairness , all blue light is not bad , is it ?

Speaker 1 59:42

Yeah good question .

Speaker 2 59:45

Just for us . I just want to go back to the sad one Very briefly . I'll send you a study on it , roger . You can make it available to your listeners . It compares directly the 10,000 lux with a hundred lux and for short duration , so you can come to your own conclusions out of that study . How's that ? Yeah , perfect .

Speaker 2 1:00:04

Is all blue light bad ? No , it's not . In fact , I don't like the word bad blue light , yeah . Yeah , I think that's a lot . There's a lot of people out there selling products that are actually pretty good , but they actually have coined basically bad blue light . I'm not sure about that as a term . I don't think it's good .

Speaker 2 1:00:27

I like to talk about low energy blue light and higher energy blue light , and that's actually defined . And low energy blue light is blue light that falls above 455 nanometers and goes up to around about 500 nanometers . And it's called low energy blue light because it actually is lower in energy and it doesn't have the penetrating powers of higher energy blue light . So when you get to 455 and below , as you go down the scale down to around about , let's say , let's say , 360 nanometers , it gets more and more energy and in fact , towards the end of that scale . We talk about a UV light and we know that how UV light can be very penetrating and damaging and that's why we get sunburned . The visual radiation is actually starting to penetrate or it might not be even visual , can't even see it anymore , but it's starting to penetrate into our skin and cause damage . It also can penetrate our eyes . So the light , the blue light , that we have in LEDs and all that it is at the peak of our white LEDs is around about 450 nanometers . So that's at the very start of this higher energy blue light .

Speaker 2 1:01:42

I wouldn't call it bad , but there are some people that are concerned about how much of it's in our lives now and particularly at night . But this blue light we were at with the Oson Loop , we call that low energy blue light and it's really , if you're gonna use good and bad , good and bad , it's the good blue light and it's the blue light that is fundamental to human health and yeah , there's a lot to it . But what I've actually done is written a white paper with we've got a chronologist on the staff , a Dr Nina Lee . I'm happy to make it available to you listeners of their interest in the subject , but we've written a white paper on actually what is good and good light and bad light , bad blue light , even though I don't like it , but that's what the industry talks about .

Speaker 2 1:02:30

People in industries that are selling things they're like blocking glasses could be really handy to make sure you're not getting blue light at inappropriate times , so they definitely have their place . We're going to bring in this case of product that filters out 40% of blue light below 45 nanometers , because I was really interested what it be filtering out what I'm producing with the Ocin loop , and the answer was no , it's not . But if anyone's interested in that , they should go to Zeiss' website and look up BlueGuard . It's fascinating what's been offered out there .

Speaker 1 1:03:18

Yeah , it is . It is becoming very , very topical now , the blue light . So anyway , ralph , let's wrap this up with where we're at . One question that I did want to ask you is going back to what I talked about with the satellite being . It could be a benefit ,

Shift Workers Benefit From Ocin Loop

Speaker 1 1:03:38

but the Ocin loop is obviously not something , because shift workers are not actually just well , some are , but not majority are not sitting at a desk all the time . They're not sitting at a desk with that , you know . They're out driving around . Truck drivers are driving , taxi drivers , uber drivers , pilots we have cabin staff that are running around on planes , you know . So not everybody's in a position where they're sitting at a desk . It's ideal for that . Can you see where an Ocin loop could benefit a 24-7 shift worker and in what way would you see that ?

Speaker 2 1:04:17

Yes , firstly , I want to applaud you , roger , for trying to make a difference in the shift work space . I know that you work shift work for many years . It's a societal problem and it's not going away . In fact , I think the statistics show that more and more people as a percentage are working shifts and we need shift workers . The work they do is absolutely imperative for modern society to function correctly . I think there's so much work that needs to be done to actually alleviate some of the problems around shift work . Again , it's not my expertise , but I applaud you for trying to make a difference in anyone it does .

Speaker 2 1:04:54

Where can the Ocin loop fit in ? One of the things is it can definitely help with rear lining your shift back to a proper day night cycle post shift . We tend to talk of shift as just one thing . I know it's such a multitude of different shifts and everyone is individual . If you want to get rear lined quicker , there's a place for Ocin loop , particularly in the darker months where you might struggle to get natural light . I think that's one of the things that we don't think about enough is just that times in winter , even at the latitudes of , say , melbourne , how hard it is to actually , if you're having to sleep at odd hours and you're working once you finish this to actually get the right amount of exposure to light to realign you back to a normal day night cycle which probably your family are on and your social circle and everyone else is working to . That's one of the problems . The other thing is I think there's some really interesting things happening out there . Like Olivia working with ArcaShift . I'm really interested and I've actually talked to Olivia .

Speaker 2 1:06:11

I can see a future where a product like the Ocin loop will be able to have a scheduling to help shift workers and give them the right light at the right time . I don't think we're that far away from that . That would be something I hadn't intended in development of the Ocin loop , but it's obvious now to me that we can really make . But I can't make those schedules . I need someone that has the science and knowledge . It's a form of biohacking , basically that we use technology and we schedule a proper regime . It's starting to happen with travel . Also . There's another company , time Shifter , with making recommendations . A lot of it's around light exposure and timings to help alleviate jet lag . Again , scheduling of light .

Speaker 1 1:07:01

Yeah , it's all about scheduling of light . Olivia's work and ArcaScope and the development that's gone into ArcaShift has been phenomenal . I've been very fortunate to work with Olivia over this over the last particularly probably 18 months or so in providing her with live shift workers so she can get live data that's coming from actual shift workers working shift work , not an N12 study that's done over four weeks . This is over a long period of time . The data that's coming in is phenomenal and it's helping them to develop this shift app .

Speaker 1 1:07:41

Rightly , what you say is like even companies like Time Shifter , companies like ArcaScope everything is around light exposure . It's meal timing , light exposure and cutting caffeine is the main thing , but it is light and it's the key . I would love to see a world and I believe that 2024 will be your year where a loop will actually end up being that loop app , will be synced in with ArcaShift and the person will have their loop and they'll get the light . That would be phenomenal for you . Ralph , can you hold the loop light up and can you just talk about where it is at the moment and what it is actually Doing to show people that are able to watch that and just talk around it ? There it is , it's a very sexy boost .

Speaker 2 1:08:34

Yeah , unfortunately the way our camera is working , our laptops and it doesn't show the spectrum truly what it is . I don't know if I cut , no , it won't . It looks white here , but I can tell you it's sky blue and color . Yeah , it has a couple of other unique features in it . I don't know if you'll see this , but if I push and hold the back button for two seconds it's gonna go to a zoom mode or got video conference mode and now it's transitioning . It's gonna turn off but it'll come back on in day . It's gonna do a transition to amber over 20 seconds , what would normally happen over two hours . So don't know if you can really see you'll process just starting to change now and it goes to a lovely golden amber , back to where our ancestors come from , that fire based light , and now it's transitioning back to the day mode . So it has those functions . It also has an app that geolocates the loop . That doesn't matter , we are on the world . It'll geolocate to your time and then sets that to the day night cycle in that that region I run it to . I run it on a 12 hour cycle .

Speaker 2 1:09:43

People often ask me that I call it equinox timing Because if you think about the only normalized days , no matter we are on the world , it's particularly Than what , the more you are south or north of the equator , we we only have two normalized and that's around the equinox . So you know , the 21st of March and the 21st of September . So I Could follow the normal day night cycle , but I decided to just set it to 12 . Because 12 hours ? Because there's summary , this research showing that we get benefit from a longer artificial Melanopic day , if you like , in winter , but we have no benefit at all in summer .

Speaker 2 1:10:22

So I just okay , and if you think about , if you believe in evolution , where we've come from and how we evolved Humanity come out of Africa , out of sub Saharan Africa , which is pretty well near the equator , and that's how we evolved , basically to a 12 hours day , 12 hours night . And then , when we moved out of it , the further we get away from the 12 hours , the bigger the problems and that's why people living in far north or as hard to do it in the southern hemisphere , but the fur you are away from that normal cycle , the larger the problems around light , like seasonal affected disorder . We don't have seasonal affected disorder on the equator , no , unless we . Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:11:05

Just to explain the equinox .

Speaker 1 1:11:07

If I can just explain the equinox light to people , the reason what we're doing is it's been guided from From the equator with a 12 hour day . Now we further cause bigger problems with this when we add daylight saving into our into our schedule , because Our days are longer and longer and longer and we're getting light exposure a lot more . So what Ralph has done with the Ocean loop is he's actually narrowed it down to that 12 hours day . 12 hours Doesn't matter whether it's winter or whether it's summer . It's going to be measuring the same amount of 12 hours so that people are not Getting like in the summer or we get more daylight . So it doesn't stretch it out and give you a sunset at , you know , 10 o'clock at night . It's actually giving you a sunset at that 12 hours from the equator . So it's giving you an equal measure of daytime and nighttime as far as circadian Disruption goes , and I think this is really , really a key . I think that's a key in the actual light .

Speaker 1 1:12:09

Sorry , ralph , I think you've absolutely nailed , nailed it . I think it's . It's an exciting project . You should be very proud of what you've done with , with how you're going about it . I've got a question that I'm going to throw a bit of a curveball at you and I know you're gonna have to be careful how you answer this . But do you think in years to come , can you see because with the evidence that's around now in relation to the lighting in these 24-7 workplaces particularly nurses working in hospitals , call centers with lighting and things like that Can you see , with increased incidence of breast cancer , prostate cancer that there could end up be Civil matters against employers because they're aware or they've been made aware of the the ? I know it's a difficult one , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 1:12:58

But if there's evidence you can prefer not to answer it , I would say possibly I look it's not . It's not my area of expertise on whether it's gonna , but what I would say is we all need to do better in this space .

Speaker 1 1:13:14

Yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 1:13:16

That that's look , it is a it . What I will say is we do have occupational Health and safety . Yeah , health , it's the word , health is in there . We know that not getting this right has a long-term effect on human health .

Speaker 1 1:13:32

Yeah , they are , and that's the best there . That's the absolute best diplomatic answer that you could possibly have given me , ralph , and I love it , because I think we do need to be a Little bit careful that we don't open a can of worms . But , by the same token , yeah , health and well-being and health , ock , health and safety . Health is part of it . Now , ralph , today's Friday , but do you have anything excited that you'd like to share with our listeners ? Because I know you're busting to tell me all about this and tell our listeners about it .

Speaker 2 1:13:57

So Go for it . I , I certainly do . Not only have we produced pretty well the first Supplementary circadian dislam , we're now going to be the first company , so on Monday we're going to be the first company in the world to actually offer circadian light via subscription Amazing , so , what I'm trying to do is make it affordable to everyone .

Speaker 2 1:14:23

So People often say , well , the product seems expensive . It is because of this light . It's

The Ocin Loop

Speaker 2 1:14:29

really difficult to get the LEDs and get this mixture . They're very expensive LEDs . I Want to make a difference in this space and we've really thought about it and we've decided to offer the Ocin loop as a Hardweb via subscription model . So we'll deliver a loop to you so you can use it . You can get the benefits right now for basically via subscription and no one else globally is doing anything like this and it starts . It starts from if you want to sign up for you , it's only $24 a month . Start up for you . So that's an Australasia . We'll be launching it into the UK and US also . So , yeah , have a look at it . Now's the time , now's your chance . You can . A lot of people go off . I'm unsure about this . I have not had one returned , and that's the truth . I'm not just saying that no one has returned a loop once I've got one on the desk . So I think even you , roger , were a bit doubtful when I gave it to you ?

Speaker 1 1:15:31

I was , I absolutely was . When I got mine , I thought you know , I don't know about this , but you're not getting it back . It's that simple and I think it's . It is a really . And let's break that down even further for six bucks a week , six dollars a week , that's one coffee , one coffee a week . Well , at the moment it's one coffee , it probably more , but for one coffee a week , and we all value that . But Six dollars a week , you can have one of these sitting on your desk . If you're a work from home or if you are someone who needs to Resync your circadian daytime and this is the important part , and I just thought while I was talking to you then I've literally just come up with a way that I Shift work . You can actually use this , and that is , as you're coming out , a night shift , when you have that short sleep after your night shift . This would be ideal to use and have in your vicinity to help to reset your circadian Rhythm back into the normal circadian cycle . There you go , ralph , it's a perfect one .

Speaker 2 1:16:34

I've just thought of another one . When you come off shift and you're preparing for bed , you can just use the Yep . Space and just use a loop . You're not getting any stimulus to affect your sleep .

Speaker 1 1:16:51

Yeah , okay , yeah , that makes sense .

Speaker 2 1:16:53

Yeah , that absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:16:55

So and as time goes by and as you communicate with people like myself , or if we can get them into shift workers hands to actually use them and get by a feedback as to when they're using it , how they're using it , I think I can see you use in law enforcement . I absolutely can , and the way I would see it would be for people to have it people that are working inside Over night , just to have it on the desk and turned on and I think that would be ideal as well or Even people who are inside during the day in the desk , like nurses at nurses stations and things like that , just to have this here to just remind the body that , hey , it's blue light , it's daytime , because a lot of people don't know when it's daytime or nighttime outside of their working environment . I'm excited to see this evolve and I think for six dollars a week to people , for six dollars a week , it's one coffee and that's all it is on a on a subscription service that you can have and if you don't want it , you just give it back and that's the end of the subscription . But , as you've quite rightly pointed out , no one sent one back and that speaks volumes . So that's exciting .

Speaker 1 1:18:09

And this is coming up this Monday . Is that correct ?

Speaker 2 1:18:12

Correct . Um and just on that , people's work positions are work call out to all employers , often people where the situation of workers ? They don't get a choice . I wear your desk , so if you've got a desk with no natural light , did you choose that position ? No , yeah , and you don't agree it's . It's important employers , I'm imploring you to actually do something about this .

Speaker 1 1:18:36

Yeah , and I think they've got a responsibility to it . To be honest , it's quite negligent if they continue to pump a blue light into a work environment that is causing a biological impact , and I'll just leave it at that . Ralph Monday , where are people going to start looking for you over the weekend now so that people can start working out where they're going to find To reach out for this ? Oson Luke ?

Speaker 2 1:19:00

Just Google Oson Luke or go to WW dot Oson light dot com . You can find us some on Instagram . Just look for Oson light . Facebook again Oson light . So facebookcom slash Oson light . We're on tick tock . I don't know what that is , because I'm not . I'm not young enough .

Speaker 1 1:19:21

I'm trying to avoid it , but I'm not gonna .

Speaker 2 1:19:23

Yeah , I'd like I'd like to give a call out to Dr Martin and his new book , the the light doctor . You can get it on sub-stack . It's actually free to , if you subscribe to it , read chapter one , it's . If you read chapter one , I don't think you'll ever look at light . Is light the same ? So If you're interested or you doubtful or skeptical , just read chapter one and and and , honestly and obviously , roger , a couple of studies that we've referenced . You'll make them available to your listeners .

Speaker 1 1:19:53

Absolutely , I will . All of those links will be in the show notes , the , the Instagram , the website , dr Martin more aid , who I'm hoping to have on the podcast , to reinforce this as well . He has agreed to come on to the podcast , so hopefully we will have that , which will reinforce everything that's been said today . I'll put the link to the light doctor Martin more aid on sub-stack into there so you can subscribe to that . It's free and you can read the first chapter of his book . It will change your life forever . I also suggest that people look if you're a podcast listener , have a look in these show notes for how to spell Dr Martin more aid and you will see that he's appeared on podcast . Have a listen to what he's got to say around light Ralph fantastic . I'm really grateful that you've come on and explained from lighting . Lighting is very complex and I realize it's probably lost some people , but if you're stuck around to the end here , you will have got enormous benefit out of this and I sincerely appreciate it For coming on to the podcast .

Speaker 1 1:20:55

I've just won billions of dollars now . I know you're a person that travels a lot , but if I bought you a holiday house anywhere in the world that you had to live in it for six months of the year With your lovely . Where would you would ? You don't have to take her if you don't want to . It can be a nice little Dark place with a campfire , which is ideal . Where would you like me to buy or build it for you , ralph ?

Speaker 2 1:21:16

It will definitely be with my lovely , because I'm sure she's gonna listen to this .

Speaker 1 1:21:19

Yes , of course .

Speaker 2 1:21:20

It's dangerous for me to say anything else .

Speaker 1 1:21:22

You've saved yourself .

Speaker 2 1:21:23

I'm actually really lucky . I actually probably already have . It's a modest beach house in a place called Golden Bay , which is the top half of the South Island , new Zealand . It's a beautiful place and I Actually am aiming to live there at least six months a year , so I'm well on that journey . I would have a lot flasher house if I hadn't started O'Sun .

Speaker 1 1:21:48

And Isn't that just the truth as well ? If I didn't start , if I didn't start O'Sun , I probably would have had ten times as much , but you know what I mean . This with all sincerity , you know . I believe that you will have a lot flasher house in the future Because of the direction that you're actually heading in , and me too , and I would like to be able to do that as well . It'd be very , very nice . Thank you so much . Well , I really appreciate you . I know as shift workers , we really appreciate your work and the time and effort , and the fact that you live in 10% of the house that you would like to be actually living in shows how passionate you are about this project and bringing circadian lighting Into the world today , and I think it's a real credit to you . So thank you so much for appearing on the show .

Speaker 2 1:22:32

Thank you very much , roger and there you have it .

Speaker 1 1:22:35

That's Ralph Booth From O'Sun . Really interesting conversation . I know it was very sciency and it was quite long , but I do value you sticking to the very end of that , because it's going to become Something that is very , very topical as we move forward with lighting in 24 seven workplaces . I think the O'Sun loop is well . I've spoken about it more than enough through the podcast , so I don't need to go on about it , but it really is such a good bit of kit . It's a sexy looking beast and for people that work at desk all the time , something like this is excellent . And they're launching their subscription service on Monday in relation to that , the 8th of January . So I suggest that you jump into the show notes , have a look at that and see what it is that it looks like , learn all about it which you've just done and give it a try . You've got nothing to lose because you can always just give it back Now .

Speaker 1 1:23:32

Thanks very much for listening to the podcast today . I do sincerely appreciate it and if you're still with me after an hour and 22 minutes , I really appreciate it . And if you got any value out of the podcast , please go to the trouble of giving it a five star rating or a review . I'd really really appreciate it , and it helps the reach of the show enormously . Thank you again and I'll talk to you next time . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to a healthy shiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .