First Responders and Mental Health

Speaker 1 0:00

Today's episode is a podcast that I am really really proud of . Ever since the late part of 2019 , 2020 , ever since COVID , we've had massive problems with stress , burnout , and there's a new kid on the block . And the new kid on the block is compassion fatigue . And in today's episode , I'm going to be discussing stress , we're going to be talking burnout and we're going to be talking compassion fatigue with Dr Michelle Finneran , who is an expert in this area . Buckle up , strap yourselves in , because you're about to be taken on an amazing ride .

Speaker 1 0:47

Shift work can be brutal , but it doesn't have to be . Welcome to a healthy shift . My name is Roger Sutherland , certified nutritionist , veteran law enforcement officer and 24 seven shift worker for almost four decades . Through this podcast , I aim to educate shift workers , using evidence-based methods , to not only survive the rigors of shift work , but thrive . My goal is to empower shift workers to improve their health and wellbeing so they have more energy to do the things they love . Enjoy today's show and welcome to today's episode of a healthy shift podcast . I'm great , so grateful that you've joined us today .

Speaker 1 1:32

Today's chat with Dr Michelle Finneran is something else . This was a podcast that I had absolute pleasure in chatting . I've had feedback in relation to some of my podcasts that I think I've done three or four podcasts where I've literally been sitting across the table chatting with the guests and the feedback has been that there's such chemistry between the two and how it went . But this one here , even though Dr Finneran is in the US , I felt like I was sitting across the table having a chat . We sat , we listened , we chat . It was just . It is such a good chat .

Speaker 1 2:09

Now Dr Finneran is an author , a clinical psychotherapist and a mental health advocate . She's got a PhD in conflict resolution , dispute analysis from Nova Southeastern University . Dr Finneran is a licensed psychotherapist and he's practicing in Florida Now . Her research and academic book focuses on the topic of domestic abuse populations and the first responders and service providers , who are the people who are out there helping people . Now she not only counsels clientele has written two academic books but she also does contract work and speaking for the community and local municipalities that employed first responders and service providers . Now , driven by her mental health advocacy , dr Finneran is more so now seeking to educate and inform others on her findings in regards to the mental health and wellness fields .

Speaker 1 3:03

Now , the reason why I've got Dr Finneran on today's podcast is because I've learned about compassion fatigue , and Dr Michael Michelle Finneran is an expert in this area . This is an area that is super important for you to listen to and learn about , because , as first responders and frontline health , you're going to need to know about this . So with that much further ado , let's get on with the show . Welcome to the show , dr Michelle Finneran . How are you today , michelle ?

Speaker 2 3:34

Good , roger , thank you for having me . I'm doing really well . How are you ?

Speaker 1 3:38

It's fantastic . Thank you so so much . The area of your expertise is an area that I really it came to light by actually following you and learning about compassion fatigue . I think it's something that's really , really important that more of our frontline health and emergency services people were really more aware of . So what I want to do is I want to go through this with you today . We will get to that . But to start off with , can you just explain to us who you are ? Because , as a doctor working in this space for our first responders and emergency services , frontline health , we really appreciate you for the work that you do , the tireless work that you do , because it's such important work now to help our first responders . So what led you to there ? Tell us about yourself and how you got to where you are today .

Speaker 2 4:30

So I've been in the mental health field for about 20 years . I started relatively young and I started with community mental health working as a mental health therapist , and then I got licensed and then I went into private practice and I've been in private practice for about 13 years and now the practice is getting a little bit bigger and we're having more of a group practice . I see , you know , I see pre-adolescents , pre-teens , teens , adults , you know , couples , families and now communities are being a little bit macro and becoming a little bit more community oriented . To really put my pulse on the clientele , the overall clientele and what their needs are and the community's needs , it was really during COVID is when I started really leaning more into assisting first responders and service providers because of what I was experiencing as a service provider in the mental health field during COVID .

Speaker 2 5:31

It was pretty intense and I really didn't have didn't really know what I was experiencing , but it's something I was experiencing , something beyond burnout for me . So I really , you know , the more I thought about like where I was , the more I researched on what I was experiencing . And you know , charles Figley is the person who coined really not he didn't coin the term compassion fatigue , but he really got involved in the term compassion fatigue and really elaborated on this terminology . It was really initially coined by a nurse in the nursing field . So I just I found myself . I have a practice where I found myself as a service provider , wanting to give help to people who help others , very important to me and I find that having that contingency of care and providing the best care possible is essential .

Speaker 1 6:36

And we are truly , truly grateful that people such as yourself are researching and helping people in this space . Now I want to talk about I'm obviously we're going to drill in today in particular on compassion fatigue , because I really really want my listeners to understand exactly what compassion fatigue is in the hierarchy of mental health , because I think once I learned what it was , I can actually see where it has a massive place and it's almost compassion fatigue . It's a really interesting one . So , without going into that too much now , we're going to talk about what it is . We'll talk about what we need to look for in the science and how it's actually treated . But before we do , can you just explain to our listeners that what you would you personally in your expertise would consider the hierarchy of mental health in relation to frontline health and first responders ? In particular , I want to talk about stress , burnout and compassion fatigue . So could you sort of go through you know what people would experience in those fields as a progression ?

Speaker 2 7:45

Sure , sure . So I'll start with stress . Okay , I'll start with the terminology stress

Understanding Stress and Burnout

Speaker 2 7:50

. And when we research stress , there's no real definitive definition of what stress is . A couple , a couple definitions of stress is you know .

Speaker 2 7:59

The most popular one is a physical , mental and emotional strain or tension . That's an example . Another example is a condition or feeling experience when a person perceives the demands exceeds the personal and social resources that individuals is able to mobilize . It's another example of stress . And there's different types of stress .

Speaker 2 8:19

Obviously we have positive stress , which is called E stress , which is actually motivating stress kind of gets us going . We need a little bit of stress to kind of get us moving , kind of get us going . And then we have D stress , which is actually paralyzing stress , and negative stress that could be overwhelming . And when people experience this type of stress , they experience the fight , flight and freeze response which is part of their defense , coping mechanisms .

Speaker 2 8:48

In order to deal with paralyzing stress , and because such a stress has been such a major component in my practice , I'm offering , like in January , groups on a 10 week module for groups of progressive group on how to eliminate anxiety and stress from your life by learning tools in your toolbox . So it's something that it's definitely been a big proponent that I'm seeing in my practice and in the community and because of that we put together a program for my clientele and for the community to kind of seek out and learn . But it's like the Haynes selves coined the term stress as a non specific response to the body that any demand for change to ensue . So when you're feeling this and there's that friction that we're feeling , it means that we need to do something different .

Speaker 1 9:54

Yeah , that's fantastic . Now , to explain to people as well . We have an autonomous nervous system and we have people will hear me talk about it quite often we have the parasympathetic side and we have the sympathetic side . Now it's really important , like we do need that sympathetic side every now and again . It's important that we tap into that , or our body does tap into that , and that's what you call the E stress . And I think a golden example for people when it comes to E stress would be going to the gym , wouldn't it , and doing some resistance training . It's a stress that we want to put on our body because then our body adapts to those that stimuli that's coming from the training and it learns to do that . But it's not somewhere where we want to live , do we ? Because we can actually live in a sympathetic state , particularly as frontline health and first responders , we can very much live in a sympathetic state even without realizing in that heightened state all the time , and it's very , very dangerous to our system biologically , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 11:50

Yes , it is . And what happens ? Not just in your mental health , but also I'm a firm believer that your mental health transgresses into your physical health and vice versa , so it affects both mentally , psychologically , emotionally and physically so many people . When they are feeling stressed and don't know how to cope , it manifests in physical , physical form and they become really sick or ill or develop like chronic illnesses .

Speaker 1 12:18

Yeah , that's absolutely true , and I can talk about even just my own example as well . I was at the top of my game . I was very fit . Well , I thought I was very fit , I thought I was very healthy , I was at a great weight , I was lifting , I was . I was in a really good trouble when , for a walk with my partner , I was suffering from significant work stress in the background , I thought I was okay , I thought I was dealing with it really well , but I was literally under two blocks from home , walking out on a walk when I suffered a TIA , which is a trans-inherstchemic attack , which is a stroke , and when I got to the hospital , after I was rushed to hospital in a stroke ambulance , the doctor there asked me . The one of the first questions that he asked me was around stress and what sort of stress that I was actually suffering , and he said that's what caused it . So they call stress a silent killer for a reason , don't they ?

Speaker 2 13:11

Oh , absolutely . And you know , people don't really really realize what they're feeling until something like this happens .

Speaker 1 13:17

That's exactly right . And then you start to look in , don't you ? You step out , you start to look in , and then you start to realize how many signs there was of the stress . And that's when you think , oh my god , I can see it now that I'm looking back in , but while I was in it I actually could not see . So , michelle , if you could , if you know , people will be listening to this and they'll go oh no , no , I'm all right , I get stressful moments when I feel a bit heightened . But what sort of things are we looking for when it comes to actual stress ? What sort of feelings would a person get that we need to look for , which may be very , very obscure emotions or feelings or things like that , that we need to be very , very aware of and put some practice in around managing that ?

Speaker 2 14:07

So , yes , I do think that having early detection of these symptomologies and these components are very , very important . So definitely early detection . What I find is people that have an overwhelming amount of stress . They are completely , their energy is zapped , meaning they're perpetually exhausted . They cannot motivate , they cannot get motivated . It's very hard , and you know it . People think that we'll know that's depression . Well , no , it's also . It also could be stress too . So anxiety and stress they kind of blend and bleed into each other a little bit . But it can be very debilitating where you just can't seem to make the mark in terms of your deadly functioning . Your basic needs are not being that you're not sleeping as well , you're eating this off , either too much or too little . Sleeping too much , too little resorting you're finding yourself resorting to maladaptive coping skills , which are coping skills that are not healthy for you . The , the vices that we tend to lean into when we're overwhelmed and can't control , and this go ahead .

Speaker 1 15:18

Yeah , this is now when you talk about maladaptive , or we talk about things that we look at . This is where people turn to alcohol , they turn to drugs , they turn to pornography , they turn to gambling , because they're looking for that dopamine hit , aren't they ? They're looking for that , that high , to which they think that they need those things , or that's what makes them feel good , and these are things that we really need to be aware of .

Speaker 2 15:44

Yes , and it does make you feel good in the short term , but now if you can do it consecutively and consistently . Now we have two problems , correct . Now you have an addiction and now we're not even addressing the presenting first problem that got you there . So I really do feel like it can be super progressive and it can be very , very . You can become so unaware of it that all of a sudden you find yourself doing things that you don't typically normally do when just starting it , because it has a little bit of doza feeling good just for a moment .

Speaker 1 16:20

Yeah , so it's a short term dopamine hit , but it's like having sugary carbs overnight . When I look at it from a nutrition perspective , yeah , you get that high , but then you crash bad afterwards again .

Speaker 1 16:30

So it becomes a repeat , repeat , repeat problem . All right , stress . Now then we go from stress and the word that we're hearing today , particularly with emergency services and frontline health , coming out of COVID in particular at the moment , is burnout . I'm burnt out . We have short staff , we have micro managing , we have all sorts of problems , rosters trying to fill , we're putting the finger in a dike everywhere which is leaking everywhere at the moment , and everyone just is corning the term burnout . All right . So what are we looking for when it comes to burnout compared to stress for argument sake ? I mean , obviously it's different . It's a fine line . Can you explain what the difference is ?

Speaker 2 17:15

The main difference between stress and burnout and why burnout is perpetually a more dangerous

Impact of Burnout on Frontline Workers

Speaker 2 17:21

component is it's an excessive , prolonged stress and that's what makes burnout . The longevity of burnout makes it less kind of minimalistic from a stress standpoint . So it's this prolonged , excessive , prolonged stress . It's experience on a day-to-day basis for a consecutive amount of time , and so this is something that is , you suffer the same symptoms , but you may even suffer even a bigger severity of the symptomology because it's now so .

Speaker 2 17:59

It's been so long and people talk about job burnout and workplace burnout and companies really putting a lot of pressure on their employees . We talk about a lot of job burnout , particularly with first responders and service providers , but along with that there's also home life and there's also like dealing with the home life and the stress of having a family and finances and all these things that entail , and not only experiencing work burnout and just feeling completely drained and exhausted , emotionally depleted . But now you have also come to come home and you're also dealing with family and interpersonal burnout Right now to touch on that as well .

Speaker 1 18:49

This is where our frontline health and first responders have to be incredibly careful , because what happens is we're suffering from stress burnout , we're highly stressed at work and we're getting overworked , et cetera , et cetera . But a lot of people are doing shift work as well , which is paying the bills , and that's why people do shift work , otherwise you simply wouldn't do it . And then they come home and they're bringing those stresses into home , which adds further stress in the home life as well , doesn't it Well , right ?

Speaker 2 19:19

now post COVID , when I'm seeing a lot of marriages falling apart , families coming in for sessions . So yes , it does add to component and that energy when you walk into the home is felt by the entire household . So yes , it does . It's a perpetual cycle that facilitates and bleeds in from the workplace into personal life and it affects everybody in the family dynamic and then it goes backwards again too , doesn't it ?

Speaker 1 19:45

Because when you're under pressure , and you're stressing at home if you haven't got a really solid relationship , great relationship with wife or husband or children . It manifests both ways , and then it becomes an ever-revolving cycle which you just feel like you're in a washing machine permanently , don't you ?

Speaker 2 20:06

Yes , you feel like you . Just there's no escapism and that's why these vices , these meldapovices are there . And , yeah , it feels like you're stuck and you're just running a rabbit hole in a hamster wheel and can't seem to break free from it and eject yourself out of that vicious cycle .

Speaker 1 20:25

All right now . We're going to get to how we can address all of those things a bit later on , but I really now want to drill in on what we're actually here to talk about Now . This is something that I would almost guess that 99% of our frontline health and our emergency services people won't have heard of , but as soon as you explain it , it's going to be an absolute light bulb moment for so many of them , and that is compassion fatigue . Now , dr Michelle , this is your area of expertise and this is something that you're a massive advocate for , and I can see why , which is the exact reason why I've got you here to tell us all about it . What is compassion fatigue ?

Speaker 2 21:07

So compassion fatigue is a term used , and it's really for specific frontline workers and service providers that give help out to the community or their clientele or their patients .

Speaker 2 21:22

It is a physical and emotional psychological impact on the ability to help others through experiences of other people's stress and trauma . So what makes compassion fatigue more and more advanced than burnout is there's also a secondary trauma , vicarious trauma , linked to compassion fatigue , which is you're being exposed to other people's traumas , either physically aligned with PTSD or secondary by hearing stories , and it also when you output so much to other people in a helping profession , like a first responder or a service provider , and you're not getting filled back up and either at your job or in your home life , you're feeling 100% depleted , which then leads to apathy , and this is the dangerous part of having apathy in a helping profession . You lose all sense of compassion , you do not care anymore , you don't provide quality services , and so that lack of compassion and that increase in apathy makes compassion fatigue a very dangerous symptomology for first responders and service providers to do their job effectively and proficiently .

Speaker 1 22:53

Incredible . What a great , great explanation for people . Could you just give us an example ? The first people that come to mind here well , only because I coach a lot of nurses . But nurses would be significant sufferers of compassion fatigue . Would you agree with that ?

Speaker 2 23:14

Oh my gosh , absolutely . When nurses are on the floor at bedside , they don't even have time to pee . Excuse , they don't .

Speaker 2 23:23

They don't have time to eat , no time to drink water , nothing . They have no time , so they have to do little tricks . They keep a stash of almonds in there or a protein bar in their uniform . So they are probably the biggest sufferers because they're seeing and being a nurse is a very emotionally taxing but it's also a very physically taxing job . So you're moving patients , you're moving equipment , it's heavy and I have a lot of nurses that are maybe a little bit older and they really suffer from the longevity of being in the nursing profession and have the tool that it takes on the body .

Speaker 1 24:09

It's incredible . I think we , I know we all think that nurses , you know they do a great job . We don't , we totally undervalue our nurses , totally . And I know because , you know , over the last three years I've coached probably hundreds of nurses and I hear them and I hear their stories . But when you , when I learned what you were talking to me about with compassion , fatigue , it's not only , they just can't , as you said , they can't go to the bathroom , they can't eat , they don't get time , they're running off their feet . But not only that , but patient parents , or you know , patients parents or family are bringing chocolates and highly processed foods in to you know to say thank you , and they're just being left at the nurses station . So they grab a handful of lollies or a chocolate bar or some chips as they walk past , which compounds the problem . And then in the middle of the night they're sitting there listening to tales of woe from patients that just want to tell them stories .

Speaker 1 25:07

What people forget is they're taking all that on all the time . They're taking all of that on on top of what does the doctor want here ? What have I got to do here ? Oh , reading charts . And I mean , I don't even pretend to understand what nurses go through . But , god damn it , I really literally do call them the living angels on earth , nurses , because they are , and it's such a selfless job that they do and I'm not understating paramedics and police and everybody , and fire is , and everybody else that does these jobs . But nurses , I think , take on a lot more than what we give them credit for and we really do need to give them a hug and say thanks to them for what they do to help them with things like this compassion , fatigue , because they are so selfless in giving up their own health , mental health , physical health , everything for the health of others .

Speaker 2 26:00

Like it's it's so ironic you could not pay a nurse , it is and they have . When you have a , when you are a professional caregiver like a nurse , this is , this is , this is . It becomes embedded in your personality , like you are now just a caregiver in life . Now it's just so ingrained and we're you're trained to be this way In nursing school . When you do your rounds , when you go to your you know , when you go to your residency . So I mean it's ingrained in you and so you're constantly feeding out , outpouring to the patients and to the community and you know the reprieve is minimal of what they get back .

Speaker 2 26:44

Now it's not it's not to say that it's not rewarding to help a client or a patient or you know a someone who has been , who's highly sick , but it doesn't doesn't really fill their cup in the which way they need to . And that's why for nurses and first responders and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics , they need to have a good support system , formally and informally . They need to have people and professionals that they don't feel ashamed reaching out to help . They don't feel ashamed or embarrassed by saying I just can't , I can't do it all . I just can't do it all . I need a formal support . I need someone in my life , a professional to help me so I can continue to help other people , and a good informal support network like parents , friends , siblings I mean , neighbors , peers , I mean like law enforcement and firefighters are a different entity in themselves because they're like a semi-sudo family within the whole , the whole network of this industry . So they're the least opt to get the help , but they're the most ones who are needing the help .

Speaker 1 27:56

That is so , so true it you know we're all big chest-beating bros , that you know we don't , we don't need help , we don't need help . Then , all of a sudden , you really need help and it's not too late because you can get there . But for some people it is too late and in fact , before they even get , you know this is drastic . But before they even get to ask for help , they can't find a way out and they end up taking their own lives , which is a massive issue that we've got to really address , really address to show support to these people , and I think let's just talk .

Speaker 1 28:28

Go back to the compassion fatigue . It's a fascinating topic and I love it , and I hope that the people that are listening to this can

Key Indicators of Compassion Fatigue

Speaker 1 28:35

really start to identify , and what I want to do is ask you now what are the key indicators for a person suffering from compassion fatigue ? So what would , what would you be looking at in yourself to really reflect and go ? I really might need some help with this , because I can see this coming through in my own personality .

Speaker 2 28:56

Yeah Well , what it does is we talk about like having like in tune , awareness and insight into it before it gets completely out of control and you're in a danger zone psychologically or physically . So early detection in the book , in the book compassion kind of , and then really out lies how to have early detection and what to do about that sparing it off , warding it off , heading it off . So that's that's . That's that's important to know that there's different levels and different ways . It says severity that you can get to , but early detection is key to help faster and more progressively when I find , where care is critical and the focus is always on other people and other needs prior to focusing on themselves , which is a big part of compassion fatigue . It's a different type of exhaustion than burnout . Then first responders and service providers go through because of their profession , because of their profession . So it has , you know this is specifically this .

Speaker 2 29:58

Compassion fatigue is specifically designed and that you know people , anybody can feel burnt out . You can be at any type of job , but compassion fatigue is a type of term for service providers and first responders and it's the negative cost of caring . If you're a caregiver , you're caring for your elderly parent , compassion fatigue happens . You know , compassion fatigue happens when you are actively giving care and compassion to the people that you love or that you're serving . So it's continuously and ongoing professionally giving of yourself , emotionally , psychologically and physically , which then depletes and become apathetic .

Speaker 2 30:42

So when you , when you get to a point where you are kind of running your wheels and going spinning and you're in kind of like in the Tasmanian devil kind of hurricane , you know that's when most people realize something is wrong . I can't do , I don't feel good , I don't , I don't , I don't look well . So they start to notice like major changes and shifts . And that's why having awareness and early detection early on so you can spearhead it before it becomes a drastic issue where it stops doing your tracks , because that's what exactly happens . What happens is it's become so progressive and it becomes so unraveling that it stops people in their tracks and they have to take a leave , they have to take a break , they have to regroup and that's that's typically what happens . So it happens so progressively and so fast that you can't even catch up with yourself .

Speaker 1 31:48

Yeah , I totally understand that and this is where , like , I'm going to go back to the nurses again as well and particularly and first responders as well that when the radio crackles for first responders and they go , I just can't be bothered . That would be a good indicator , wouldn't it ?

Speaker 2 32:05

Yeah , just like I like when the bell rings for firefighters , when the call goes on for law enforcement , when a code goes off for nurses , you're like oh my gosh , like where ? What am I ? What is like this is I'm going to ? I can't , I can't do this and you , you , it's not that you don't want to , it's that you no longer can . Yeah that's not , it's not , it's not a want , so you don't want to do your job . It's like you , you , you need to do , you need to take a step back .

Speaker 1 32:34

Now that is a really important point . Really important point there , I think , because everybody who signs up for these services and you know I hate the term this is what you're signed up for , because this is not what we signed up for , but anyway . But I think this is really important . It's not that you don't want to , because you do want to , it's just that your body won't let you , you just can't .

Speaker 2 32:55

You can't . You can no longer muscle through , you can no longer see yourself on the other side of it . You can no longer . And so you know this is .

Speaker 2 33:06

This is when we talk about the old mentality of first responders , putting everybody else first . And this is like the new wave of my approach for first responders and service providers is , you know , you have to start putting yourself first . Like , in order for you to be healthy , you've got to put yourself first in order to help another person . So , almost like when you're in the airplane , you take the the , the mask down and you put it on yourself , then you put it on your child . It's like you've got to help yourself in order to help other people . And that's where we get caught up in feeling guilty when we take care of ourselves , not designating time to take care of ourselves , not feeling worthy enough , which then impedes our self esteem and our self confidence to not take the time to take care of ourselves . So it's a perpetual vicious psychological impact that really does damage to the person's personality , emotionality , mental health and character .

Speaker 1 34:12

Actually , and then you can get to the stage where you're no longer a person that people want to be around , because you're just not that person , and that adds another dimension of another problem .

Speaker 1 34:23

And this is the sort of thing that we don't realize is actually occurring to us with the clients that I'm working with at the moment , particularly since I've discovered your work , I'm actually having these discussions with my clients around . You know , you have to say no , particularly nurses , nurses I'm sorry to anybody else listening to this , but you know , if you're a nurse , I'm sure you're sitting there nodding and smiling , but nurses have this problem that they can't say no . So when the text message comes that they need to work , they just go . They don't even think about themselves , they just go because they have this overwhelming feeling of not wanting to let the team down . But you know , oh , you know , I don't want to be that person that's at work , that can't . You know , that's working short because we're all , oh , I'm just going to go , but you haven't had any sleep , I don't care , I've got to go because I've got to be there .

Speaker 2 35:16

And then they go or or , or or or . If something is wrong and there's a problem , they don't want to say anything because they don't want to be identified as a complainer .

Speaker 1 35:25

Oh , that's right .

Speaker 2 35:25

So something , something could be drastically wrong and there's a problem and they have a resolution , but they're afraid . So a lot of a lot of nurses just keep their mouth shut because they're afraid of the administration A lot of nurses have then . This is where the disconnect between hospital administration and or nurses and staff and nursing at bedside . They have a big disconnect and a lot of nurses don't feel comfortable going to their administration . Who's not already not feeling supported by , and maybe even administration doesn't even know , because they've never been and are nurse before , what they're doing . So they just keep their mouth shut and they just , you know , you know , they just keep going because they don't want to be looked at as a problem . Well , that's the first problem .

Speaker 1 36:11

Oh , I totally agree . And then when you do go to the administrator , the first thing the administrator will say to you is but this is what you signed up for . That's so dismissive , that's so not hearing . That is so not hearing your people , that's so not hearing them . If someone goes to you and says , hey , I'm not coping , and they say , well , you know , this is what you actually signed up for any manager or any leader or any , but you're not a leader . If you're using that terminology to anybody that saying this is what you signed up for , and I go on a rant around this , but this is not what you signed up for , and just so you know , you're actually , if you're a manager and you're listening to this , if you say this is what you signed up for , you have literally dismissed what your person is actually trying to tell you , and you need to stop that immediately .

Speaker 1 36:58

Post-hace . And because the person's going to tell you in no uncertain terms , because what they're going to do is they're just not going to turn up and that's going to be the next thing that actually happens Now in relation to compassion fatigue . It will obviously go on and on and on . It's not the most minor , it is actually one of the majors . So what happens if we just ignore this and think , oh , it'll just get better ? You know , it'll just get better ?

Speaker 1 37:25

We're just going through a rough trot at the moment and I think our nurses bless them again . I've talked about the nurses , but we've been dealing with this since , you know very well , the end of 2019 , early 2020 , the nurses in particular , and frontline health and also first responders were all promised that these lockdowns and everything that was going on was to help them , but there's no help that's come in any way whatsoever in the last three and a well . We're now back to going to 2024 . And here we are now , four years later , and there's no help . So what happens if you just untreat this and just ignore it ?

Speaker 2 38:04

Well , you , like I said , you'll get stopped in your it'll stop you , it'll , it'll , you'll get stopped in your tracks and you look like I you don't want to do your job , or you're like rebelling against the system . You just you get you literally , physically or mentally . Somehow you have a breaking . Everyone has their breaking points , everyone has their tolerance levels . Everyone has their breaking points . So you reach that point and then you are forced now to take time off . You're forced now to really examine what's going on before when it gets too late . And that's why being really astute and attuned to yourself as you're going through this , this progression , is super , super important and essential . So you don't end up having the force to be stopped that you voluntarily say I think I'm heading down a dangerous path . Let me take a step back and let me figure out a different way to do things .

Speaker 2 39:09

Like you said to your point exactly , roger , is like Learning to say no without guilt or without feeling bad , very , very important . That's why one of the reasons why people don't say no is because they're skills attached to this . So it's cutting off those strings of guilt and really just learning , having enough confidence in yourself , knowing what you can and cannot do and just feeling comfortable and okay , say I am unable to take this call . I'm unable , I need a call in for just a mental health . I need a day to myself and to recover . Especially if you have nurses doing three straight 12s in a row , I mean that's brutal on the body and the mind . Brutal , brutal , brutal .

Speaker 1 39:55

I totally agree . We shouldn't be doing 12 hour shifts full stop and I just think it's . I know people say , oh , I want it because I enjoy my days off and things like that . But what we don't understand and the more I learn about this and you're obviously someone who's in this area we are actually taxing our bodies more than what we need to be doing . We're mentally , even physically , but mentally we are putting so much pressure on our body and causing it so many more problems and we need to do that Every year .

Speaker 1 40:29

We get our car serviced and we put it in and they change the oil and they change the air filter and they tighten up screws and whatever they do when they do services Probably not much and charges a fortune . But that's beside the point and I'm a firm believer that , as frontline health and emergency services , that we really do need to have our own body serviced every year . We do need to go see our GP , sit down and have a chat with our GP . We are very lucky here in Australia , michelle , because we're in a position where our government with a mental health plan , you can go and see your GP and you can say to your GP I'm really just not coping at the moment . He will write you what they call a mental health plan and you can go and have , I think , 12 sessions with a psychologist and they will help you to talk you through , to get you back and put you back together , and that's fully funded by the government .

Speaker 2 41:26

That's amazing . That's amazing . What we have here is we have certain organizations that are progressive , like that that will provide . It's called Employee Assistance Program , where organizations and businesses and entities provide mental health , free counseling and mental health services through their Human Resources Department in their cities , municipalities , organizations , businesses , and they provide free mental health counseling and care , no charge to them . And a lot of cities are starting to catch up to other cities that are progressive and when you have a progressive city that you work for , you feel taken care of , you feel like your value , you feel important . So that's really essential for cities , municipalities and hospital organizations and administration to really kind of get on board and really start seeing like without these , without the grassroots , without the frontliners , we're really not , we don't have anything . So treating them well , having them feel supported , saying thank you as simple as a thank you note written or just saying thank you , goes so much further than anybody can ever imagine and it's just not being done .

Speaker 1 42:46

No , it is absolutely not being done . And then I'm gonna be a bit of an advocate going down the line myself , michelle . At the moment I honestly believe that and I had a conversation . I saw my doctor yesterday and I had a conversation with my doctor around this .

Speaker 1 43:03

Personally , I think we need to get rid of the term PTSD . I do . I think we need to make it PTSD . I

Addressing PTSD as a Traumatic Injury

Speaker 1 43:09

think it needs to be an injury because it can be treated and I think , long-term , what actually happens is frontline health and emergency services , people that are diagnosed with PTSD . The organizations dismiss them , they get rid of them because it's a stigma around that you are now broken and you are gone , right , so we need to let you go to recover and I think that's totally wrong .

Speaker 1 43:32

I think it needs to have an injury . If you twist your ankle at work , you take a few weeks off to recover . Everyone can see it , you rehab it , you get back on top of your game and you can go back to work . And I'm a firm believer that if we had PTSD , which was a post-traumatic stress injury , it's an injury . It's got a different connotation around it that people can actually go oh okay , he needs some time off . We'll get the rehab , we'll keep in touch , we'll balance it out for him , we'll get them back to work .

Speaker 1 44:02

And that's what it is , because you've quite rightly said that you get to the stage with stress , burn out and also compassion , fatigue and people don't understand this , and you will have seen this that the body literally says , no , that's it , I'm done , I can't do it anymore , and that's just our body's own self-protective mechanism . Now we're not talking about people that become catatonic , but we are talking about people that can get to the stage where they literally are just staring into space and they can't cope anymore . That is where it gets to people and you need to totally understand that . You need to look after yourself now , put your own oxygen mask on so that you can help other people , and I do . You agree that it should be a bit more of an injury instead of a disorder , so to speak ?

Speaker 2 44:54

When it's a medical model , it's taken a little bit more . It has a little bit more of a kick to it If it's termed in a medical phrase versus a psychological one , unfortunately . But yeah , it is an injury . It is an injury and just like when a nurse or first responder is suffering from compassion fatigue and they are literally stopped .

Speaker 2 45:19

As a healthcare professional , what I can do is have a conversation with the patient and put them on a leave for them to have the time medically so they can have the time to recover .

Speaker 2 45:32

And during that time of recovery is when I bump up my sessions with them and I see them more often and they're not gonna get their jobs are safe . Management is not supposed to contact them legally . They are designated this elongated period of time , either continuously or intermittently , where they are on , called the Federal Medical Leave Act in the States at FMLA , and people are put on this because they are literally stopped in their tracks and they can no longer do it and so before they have a mental breakdown or a physical breakdown of some sort , as a mental health professional you have to be vigilant and know your clients and see what's coming into your office and what that looks like and just say I think if this continues , this is gonna continue , you're gonna be forced to stop . So let's be preventative , let's be proactive and let's stop before it gets to that point , because once you get to that point , it's so much harder to recover from it .

Speaker 1 46:43

And that is a very , very good point again , well-made , because it's a long way back Once you've hit the bottom of the well it's an awful long way back .

Speaker 1 46:53

Trust me , I know it's a long way back , whereas if things had have been , if you identify those features and you identify things , you don't wanna get to the bottom and have to work your way back . Folks , it's a long , long way back . You need to just step back and go oh , I need help and you're not soft . You are not soft and this is the problem , because in society today , we say , oh no , we've gotta talk about mental health and we put it out there and we support our employers and things like that , but they don't . And I think the most important thing is everyone I speak to that has an issue around work or their mental health is they don't feel supported Supported is the word that is most commonly used that they don't feel supported in that in their , by their management , they don't feel supported in well , it could even be by their family , friends , whatever . They just don't feel supported , and you need to be supporting your staff in that area . I think that's just great . So the early intervention is vital . Like with all mental health , it's something that we can't see , but we just need to be very , very aware of .

Speaker 1 48:03

So , what strategies ? This is the important part . We've done all the Debbie Downer , all the Nose Aid . We know that the body's gonna eventually just go . No , can't do this anymore , where you're literally almost carried off to a therapist . You don't wanna get to that stage , but you can . What strategies can people put in place ? Like , if you recognize it God , I think this might be me . No , I know , I know , and I highly encourage us here in Australia to go and have a chat with your GP as your first protocol . It's not just there to give you injections or flu shots or to give you antibiotics if you've got a cold . He's actually there to help you with your mental health and that as well , and to start documenting these things which are needed . So that would be where my first protocol is . But what strategies would you suggest from a clinical point of view that people can actually do ?

Strategies for Managing Mental Health

Speaker 2 48:57

Yeah , I think just understanding that you can't just have one thing to do . I think you have to have a toolbox of things to do to ward off . So I think educating yourself by either going to your GP and going to a therapist , doing your own bibliography research on what it is that you're experiencing , like podcasts like this , is a great example of an educational tool to help people to learn , grow and understand symptomology and how to ward off and diffuse them . So we have the good thing .

Speaker 2 49:39

Technology is a blessing and a curse , but the good thing about it is , if used appropriately , we have resources and information and education at our fingertips and that's the beauty of what's been going on . So that's also a big proponent is that what people can start doing for themselves , start really examining by doing their own research of what they're doing , and I'm not just talking about Googling , but I'm talking about , like , viable resources and podcasts and information that are actually laden in research and academia that's been tested , that's been hypothesized , that's more and more academic and theoretical in nature . Google is not a medical and they're not the medical ads , but that's where people go to . When they feel something , they Google it and they get super anxious .

Speaker 1 50:32

So I would- . And then they scroll down to find the confirmation bias , don't they ? For whatever they're looking for , they find that one . No doubt about it .

Speaker 2 50:39

Yeah , yeah . So it's using resources that are actually really , really credible credible resources and credible information and then starting off with either communicating to somebody that you trust a professional , a friend , somebody that can actually I've had a lot of clients that their friend actually recommended them coming to a therapist . That's a good friend .

Speaker 1 51:10

Excellent friend , that's a good friend .

Speaker 2 51:12

Yeah , it's a good strategy . I don't realize this .

Speaker 1 51:14

Sorry if I can just say that it's a really good strategy . If you've got a long-term friend in your life , it's actually a really good strategy to sit them down at a table and say how do you think I'm going , how do you think how are you finding me these days ? But you must listen to what they're saying . Don't argue , just listen to what they're saying , because they're your close friend , they're your confidant and if they say , well , you know what , I've really noticed that you're very short but you've been very negative . You've been all the . Listen to what they're saying and take that to your GP and have that conversation with your GP around it , because your friend knows , your partner knows . If they're pointing things out to you , don't let it cause an argument and a fight in your household . Take it on board and move forward and use this as the oh . My God , I can't see this , but people are seeing this from the outside and I need to do something about it . I think it's really important that we listen to the people closest to us .

Speaker 2 52:14

That's . That's a really , really good piece of advice . I always say that you're your , your partner , your husband or wife and people that are closest to you are your biggest Resources , is your biggest that ? Your biggest resources for input and feedback ? And when you solicit input and feedback , the last thing you want to do is is Criticize them and how , get defensive with them and have a bitch session with them because they're trying to give you feedback . It almost makes the feedback like counterproductive . So the goal is that go asking for feedback With the goal to help you .

Speaker 2 52:51

Literally ask for feedback , literally feedback and get , get the input from a trusted , loved source and Take it and Examinate , instead of being having an emotional backlash because they're providing you with constructive criticism . Or , third , even noticing in the changes that are going on your personality or character . Listen to what they're saying , have them provide examples , have them be specific and , if it's , if you feel like it's resonating with you , then you're gonna go to the next step . What happens is when people solicit feedback , they don't like what they're hearing and they have an emotional backlash which defeats the purpose . Now , your friends probably never gonna want to give you feedback ever again .

Speaker 1 53:39

You'll be dismissive of your friend . And yes , and in all honesty , if you ask a person for feedback , or even if someone gives you unsolicited feedback , right , and just says , listen , I've been , I've noticed you with what you're actually doing at the moment and you know , are you aware that this is happening or this is happening ? That's not a time to have an argument with them . That's a time to take on board what they're actually telling you and going on , because if you're gonna argue with them that that there is the problem , that's that's what they're flagging with you . That's what they're telling you is wrong .

Speaker 1 54:10

Because when you're open and receptive and you go , oh really , what's an example of that ? Like you said this , and you look at it , you go , my god , that is actually right , I didn't realize that . Yeah , yeah , I think fantastic , really , really good . Now I want to ask you this this is critical and I'm sure in your research on what you've seen along the lines Is this is really important . It's a really important question for me to ask at the moment and I do ask a lot of my researchers around this how much responsibility in preventing stress , burnout and , in particular , this compassion , fatigue do you place on employers ? Can they do what ?

Speaker 2 54:47

can they do better ?

Speaker 1 54:49

On employers , not not the employee , not on the individual , not on Roger or Michelle , but how much ? How much do Responsibility do we know ? Because I'm a firm believer and I've had a few doctors and researchers come on to my podcast talking about that . We need to strip down 24 seven shift working environments and we need to rebuild them as 24 seven shift working environments , with all the strategies and practices in place , so that we are managing mental health , fatigue , all of those sort of things . So is it ? Is it the employees Responsibility to manage themselves , or is it the employers to actually go ? Hang on a second . We need to do better .

Speaker 2 55:34

I think . I think the individual and a micro system perspective . They need to take some responsibility and need to know when to say okay , no , I cannot do this , so they need to know themselves . So I think the employer and the employee kind of have to meet each other halfway . It is for a macro , organizational standpoint . It is , you know , you Coming from a money standpoint , if your employees are tapping out and your business , your business and your organization's losing money .

Speaker 2 56:07

So the overall goal , if you're looking for a business proponent standpoint , organizationally , so the goal is , as an organization , the employer who employs their , their , their people , their employees , really need to look at the overall pulse , have a pulse on the health of their organization and the people . And this is by having individualized supervision group meetings , you know , spearheading issues for them to be open and honest and receptive to the employees . Feedback is Pretty important and not look at them like a problem that they're having , that they're the problem . No , your , your employees are giving you feedback . They're giving you input on what they're experiencing , the problems that they're having , and even maybe Going to step further , providing solutions .

Speaker 2 57:04

It's that , that's . That that's the employee doing their job . The employer has to meet the employee halfway , or what are we doing ? What are we doing here ? So if the employer doesn't meet the employee halfway and really be open and receptive , they might not like what they're hearing . It doesn't matter , you're employed by this employer . You have to be open and receptive to have your pulse on the heartbeat of your organization and company .

Speaker 1 57:31

Yeah , otherwise you end up with no one doing the job for you and you look silly .

Speaker 2 57:35

Or or or or no one wanting to work for you ? Yeah , that's because you don't really care , you don't really care .

Speaker 1 57:40

No . And then , as people are leaving in masses , or , you know , in big organizations , but even in smaller organizations , if you look at the turnover of staff and people leaving , that's a true indicator of you that there's no connection between management and their staff , isn't it ?

Speaker 2 57:56

It's a huge indicator . And it's a , it's a , it's a . You know as much as . As much as the employee wants to be loyal , they're unable to yeah because because of that disconnect .

Speaker 1 58:08

Yeah , fantastic , I look . I'm so grateful for this conversation with you . This is , this is just such a great chat and I really appreciate your time and your effort and explaining everything there . And once again , I will say this , actually as a as a 24-7 veteran shift working myself we appreciate you for the work that you do , because you know I could ask you are you okay , because you take an awful lot on board as well from Everyone that you're listening to that you must be . You must get to the stage where you get compassion fatigue yourself , where you just think , oh my god , I'm sick and tired of hearing the same thing over and over again .

Speaker 2 58:47

Well , there was a point during the pandemic where I was using meloda . The only reason why I've this is a personal topic for me , because I've experienced it personally . So I was doing things not in the healthiest way either as well . So I have an eclectic things in my toolbox that I do . I have a therapist that I speak to professionally , that I go to as a therapist to help other my clients and help me navigate my own mental health . It's almost like going to someone to help you with your physical health . You're not going to go to somebody who , forgive me , who's obese or overweight with your physical health . You're not going to go to somebody to get in physical shape that it's not in physical shape themselves . So same thing is right for mental health . Mental health therapists have to really take care of the mental health and really make sure in order to provide contingency of care for mental health services . If I don't have good mental health , how am I supposed to provide it for my clientele ? So that's really important for me to make sure .

Speaker 2 59:47

I am always constantly tweaking , modifying my tools and my strategies not just one tool , but several tools , getting out any excess stress or anxiety by . I go for a meditative walk in the morning . If I'm feeling overly anxious or I'm feeling overly angry , I take out my frustration on a racquetball . I mean these things that I do incorporate in my life to help alleviate any type of spiral , any type of buildup , really , and just a release for me Talking . I'm an extroverted person . Communication is a big thing for me , talking to people that actually are listening . It's very hard to try to open up and be vulnerable to someone who is focused on themselves .

Speaker 1 1:00:40

Not listening . No doubt about it , no doubt about it Not reciprocating . Michelle , do you have anything exciting that you would like to share with the listeners that we've got ? Because I know you actually have an e-book and I've got a copy of it and it is absolutely tremendous and I would love to . I will put a link to it in the show notes , but can you just talk about it for us and let us know ? The floor's all yours , Sure .

Speaker 2 1:01:06

So the e-book is not . It's now on Amazon . It's called the Compassion Condendrum First responders and health first responders and service providers prevent fatigue . So the e-book has a different type of psychological , physical symptoms of all stress , burnout and compassion . Fatigue .

Speaker 2 1:01:26

In chapter three highlights specific tools and techniques and prevention methods to combat all three and there are seven main things that are consistently have to be done on a daily basis . Consecutively , we talk about chapter four . We talk about you know , if you do go to a therapist , what therapeutic interventions , approaches , modalities can be used as you're seeking out with a therapist to help alleviate the symptomology that you're feeling . So you're not getting stopped in your tracks . So you're spearheading it off before it gets to that point .

Speaker 2 1:02:01

It's about it looks like a workbook but it's not . It's more like it's a physical book that looks like a workbook and it was released on October 31st on my website and more recently on Amazon . So it's called the Compassion Condendrum and it's strategies for first responders and service providers to prevent fatigue . And it's on my website , beckonassociatescom , and you can go there on the shop tab and there'll be a list of resources and products for purchase on that shop tab . So it's pretty good . It's not expensive . I believe we lowered the price down now to like . I think for the paperback , I believe it's $10 now , and for the e-book I think it's $7.99 . So it's very affordable . It's very resourceful and if you're an administrator , one of the things that you can do is buy several for your staff . That's the first step . That would be an example of an administrator , a boss , an employer to help their business , to help their employees , to help their staff .

Speaker 1 1:03:08

Oh , wonderful . Now I'm going to put that , people , that's $10 . $10 . Now that is US , obviously $10 US . But seriously , folks , australian , that's under $15 . Under $15 for you to Now .

Speaker 1 1:03:23

The idea of this podcast and I want to be very clear the idea of this podcast was to bring awareness to where compassion fatigue fits in the scale and also to talk about compassion fatigue . But the book , the Compassion Conundrum , actually explains the strategies and steps that you can take to manage and look after it . So we deliberately haven't talked about that . I really I'm talking about this with Michelle now , but I want to make sure that people go over and spend the dollars . If you think that you might be a sufferer and you could learn from it , or you don't really know how to break that hamster wheel cycle of everything that you're going through , go and spend $10 US and buy the book and have a look .

Speaker 1 1:04:05

It's a simple download , it's easy flip through , it's not a difficult book . It's not like it's a great novel that you're going to have to sit by the pool for days on end trying to read . It's very simple and it's got great strategies and it's fantastic and thank you so much for putting it together . Now I have . I will definitely put a link to it . The Amazon one . I've got an Amazon store

Promoting Dr. Michelle Finneran's Resources

Speaker 1 1:04:27

linked in my Instagram bio that I will actually add it into there so that people can see it there for when they go in and have a look in , and I also will put all of the links to everything that you have , if you could just go through your main , where people can actually find you . I've got a great list here which I will put all of them into the show notes .

Speaker 2 1:04:51

So where they can find me would be on my business website back and associatescom Viet's Invictor , ecc , and associatescom it has my website there . You see my myself , my team , my mission , what I'm proposing to do for my clientele , for the community , a breakdown of my services . You see the products that are there . I also have a YouTube channel . If you just YouTube Dr Michelle Finneran , you go on the website . You can sign up for a free monthly newsletter . Good resource , mental health tips in the newsletter . Sign up to be a subscriber for my YouTube channel . You get free downloads of podcasts like this , snippets like this full-fledged interviews to educate , to inform and , as an advocate .

Speaker 1 1:05:39

Amazing . So we've got the website Facebook , We've got an Instagram there and we've also got LinkedIn , Pinterest and a YouTube channel . I will post all of those links in there to support you , Michelle , because you deserve that from our listeners . The work that you're actually doing in this area and you're going to bring a lot more awareness to this , and I hope that the professionals can get a lot more awareness around this as well . And you're quite rightly said , it's really really important that we have evidence-based people on podcasts like this to get information .

Speaker 2 1:06:15

Absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:06:16

And Google is not the solution , and what we talk about here is confirmation bias . If you are looking for something in particular , when you Google it , you will literally find it . Google will read your mind and will find exactly what it is you're looking for , which may not be the correct information , so start against it . So that's why it's important that people listen to these podcasts with evidence-based practitioners like Dr Finner and him , and I bring these people to you so that you can learn evidence-based strategies and be aware of these medical terms . Michelle , thank you so much .

Speaker 1 1:06:51

Now , as a closer , I've just won a million dollars last night , and what I'm going to do is I'm going to buy you a holiday house , and , just because you've been so generous with your time and you can get rid of your compassion fatigue , you've got to go and live in it . For six months of the year , though , and I'll build it for you anywhere in the world that you want me to build it for you , so you've got to live in it . This is my closing question to everybody when do you want me to buy it or build it for you ?

Speaker 2 1:07:19

Well , for my milestone birthday , my goal is to go to Tuscany , Italy .

Speaker 1 1:07:25

You won't regret it . So I can promise you , you will not regret it have you been ?

Speaker 1 1:07:29

I have absolutely been to Tuscany , and Tuscany is one of the most beautiful places in the world . And , for those that don't know , tuscany is out of Florence , south of Florence , in Italy , and it is the most gorgeous place to drive through . Drive through it and go and have a look at little villages . Now , in some of those little villages because I'm already picturing this so I know where I'm going to build it for you straight away I'm going to build it in one of those villages that just look absolutely gorgeous , up on the hills , overlooking the fields of Tuscany and areas like that , and you can just live happily ever after under the Tuscan sun .

Speaker 1 1:08:08

How does that sound ?

Speaker 2 1:08:10

Compassion . Fatigue will not be a part of my practice or my anything else , and when you have , thank you so much for building that for me .

Speaker 1 1:08:16

Yeah , no , there's no problem . Compassion fatigue won't be your problem , It'll just be fatigue . Full stop from just taking it all in because you won't be able to . Michelle , thank you so much . I do sincerely appreciate you .

Speaker 2 1:08:28

Thank you so much for having me on your important educational podcast , Roger . I really do appreciate the opportunity to exchange education , empirical evidence , education and research .

Speaker 1 1:08:40

And there you have it , dr Michelle Finneran . Isn't she fantastic ? And the way she's explained everything for us is just . I don't know . I'm really actually quite pumped about that episode of the podcast . I think these are going to hit people in real pain points where people need to understand and need to learn about things like compassion fatigue . We throw terms like stress and PTSD and burn out all around , but do we really understand them ? We probably don't really understand them . And compassion fatigue I guarantee a lot of you had absolutely no idea , but now that you understand what compassion fatigue can be , then you will realize , oh my God , that I've actually . I do believe that I might actually suffer with this and if that's the case , as I said in the podcast , we certainly didn't go into all the strategies around it .

Speaker 1 1:09:35

Dr Michelle Finneran has done a book . It's $10 US and if you get on Amazon and you download it through Amazon as a , as a like an ebook , a brochure type ebook , it's even cheaper . Again , for goodness sake , spend a few bucks . It's your mental health that you need to make sure and get that book and download it and read it and have a look at it and see if you identify anything around it . You need to look after your mental health . Please , I beg you to look after it , because I can promise you , if you don't make time to do that now , you're you're going to have to make time for illness later on , and you really will . And when you go down a big dark hole and you get to the bottom of the well , it's an awful long way back . Trust me , I absolutely know and understand it .

Speaker 1 1:10:20

Thank you so much for listening to that episode . I really I really enjoyed my chat with Dr Finner and then , which was probably blatantly obvious , if you really enjoyed it , could you please do both of us a favor and actually share it so that all of your colleagues and everybody understands exactly what compassion fatigue is and can get help in relation to it , because it will make a much better workplace for you . So right , and review the podcast . On Spotify , you can just go back to the main page , hit the three dots there and you can actually rate it . Once you've listened to the episode , or even listened to a few seconds , there's a hint for you .

Speaker 1 1:10:58

And on Apple , you can literally just open it up , go to the main page and at the top there you can rate it , and then

Rate and Review on Apple

Speaker 1 1:11:04

you can take it down to the bottom and ask if you want to review . If you would take a few minutes and review it , I'd be grateful for that as well . Thank you for listening . If you enjoyed this episode , be sure to subscribe so you get notified whenever a new episode is released . It would also be ever so helpful if you could leave a rating and review on the app you're currently listening on . If you want to know more about me or work with me , you can go to ahealthyshiftcom . I'll catch you on the next one .